Hillary:Well said.
The scaremongering of political propaganda has much to answer for, in dividing fellows.
Merry Becomes A Muslim (a bit long)
by Merry Magdalene 147 Replies latest jw experiences
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Merry Magdalene
I only have a moment but wanted to say thanks to KW. I'm glad to have had the chance to "meet" you here at JWD. My best to you and yours.
Abaddon, I feel you missed the point about menstruation being only one of the things we are required to purify ourselves after and before we pray. Why is that the only one that bothers you? Because it has been treated with unhealthy regard by other religions? It is not viewed the same way in Islam (or isn't supposed to be; I can't speak to the attitudes of every Muslim in every culture; some of us do still hold on to non-Islamic attitudes).
You seem to feel the Qur'an IS reliable. Yes.
If you are interested we can talk about these topic (evolution and whether the Qur'an is inspired) in another thread. Cool. I look forward to a chance to explore this topic more, whether on another thread or on my own.
You unavoidably do pass an implicit judgement (by, for example, questioning their motives) even if you are a nice enough human being not to make it explicit. I am truly not trying judge anyone (including myself), but when I observe things with which I do not agree, I feel a call to self-reflection and I try to express the hope that others will do the same. I believe we can question motives without judging them. We are doing a lot of that on this thread, imo.
Our enslavement to God in turn means that we have to suppress many of our souls’ desires and inclinations. Therein lies one of the greatest secrets to unleashing our real human potential. This is so because it is our human potential that separates us from the rest of this creation, and it is to the extent that we are able to conquer our physical nature that we realize that spiritual potential.
Now is the time to give ourselves to our Lord, totally. The trials and tribulations we are currently witnessing will only intensify as we move closer to the end of time
Oh please not the Mahdi. Please, do two things for me. Find the Qur'anic reference to the Mahdi. You probably already know I know that you almost cetainly know there isn't any.
No one mentioned the Mahdi, only the end of time.Second, ponder on why you are now believing in what you were brought up to believe. You come from a background with Millenialist beliefs. You have adopted a school of Islam with similar beliefs. "The world is a terrible place and will end soon. God/Allah will make it better". Do you see a pattern here? Maybe you have been drawn to a 'solution' you LIKE or are subconsciously drawn to, rather than one which is obviously 'true' in comparison to other beliefs. In Islam I have found no promise that the end will come soon, only that it will come, maybe soon, maybe a long long time from now. We must be fully engaged now in doing what is right and contributing to making the world a better place to the extent that we can, while yet being glad that this is not all there is. I was raised as a JW with isolation from almost everything and the hope that I might never have to die. I liked that a lot. Who really wants to die? When I left JWs I didn't give up that hope but pursued it through my research into the legends of the human immortals of India, China and Ireland. When I gave that up for Christianity, there was still an escape clause that Jesus made it possible that I might not have to die (if I squinted just right while reading the associated scriptures). But in Islam I had to finally give up my most cherished desire, for the Qur'an explicitly states that everyone must taste death. ("No one here here get's out alive.") Maybe I have a subconscious death wish, but I don't think so.
How much submission is here in going after your own desires? I'm not saying that to be mean, but to trigger self-analysis.I don't think you're mean at all. I am frequently trying to examine my desires, but they are often deeply hidden.
The quotation about female Imams is rife with error; just as evolutionism has nothing to do with the god existing or not, so to feminism has nothing to do with god existing or not. It very elegantly tries to turn the tables so the discussion is not about equality with men but about having value to god, but neglects the fact that many traditional Islamic ways show god does not value men and women equally; not as different equals (which is what they are), but as different in-equals. I disagree. And I do feel valued equally.
Like I say, if it's about your subconscious yearning for something clear-cut and certain that promises an end to the problems of the world, then it ain't submission to god but a form of shirk, with your own desires being the idol (even if you're not aware of it). I hope not, but I pray that if I am committing shirk it will be revealed to me more clearly. The self-examination continues...
All the best Merry, a pleasure discussing things with you. Likewise. I find your point of view very interesting, challenging and worth considering. I hope we both benefit.
~Merry -
Merry Magdalene
Did you all give up on me? Sorry I haven't had time to finish up here.
LittleToe: There's a marked difference between justice and mercy, Fortunately, Allah is Merciful as well as Just. http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=article&aid=44
Thank you for your fair-minded remarks, Zagor.
Hi tij! No, I haven't written any lyrics for a while. It comes and it goes. I did find a couple poems yesterday that quite touched me, though-- the last two on this page (Lam Aleph and Imagine): Mideast Youth . So, what did the Muslim boy say to ask me?
You peeked at my hair, didn't you!?.....................................................................................
Silver is just another shade of greyHe does have a penchant for rainbows, though
'and rainbows always turn to grey'...... m. y'tara 2006As to the Dispatches Undercover Mosque series shown on YouTube, here is the response of the Royal Embassy of Saudi Arabia London. Don't feel sorry for me! Ignorance, intolerence and bigotry are to be encountered everywhere, on both sides of the fence (among Muslims and among non-Muslims). It is part of the human condition. There are many other reasons you could feel sorry for me, but I would rather you didn't. There is no need. Feel sorry for abused and oppressed women of all religions or none everywhere in the world. I am not one of them, but I hope somehow I will be able to stand up for what is right and help them.
Oh, the mental pictures...it's too much!!! Thanks for the bright spot in my dayBernadette:
If I were to turn to Islam then I like to think it would be the mystical Sufi, although the Whirling Dervishes are perhaps a little OTT for my tastesYeah your right LT ....scottish dancing is more sedate
Have a great weekend everyone!!! ~Merry
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Abaddon
Merry
Abaddon, I feel you missed the point about menstruation being only one of the things we are required to purify ourselves after and before we pray. Why is that the only one that bothers you? Because it has been treated with unhealthy regard by other religions? It is not viewed the same way in Islam (or isn't supposed to be; I can't speak to the attitudes of every Muslim in every culture; some of us do still hold on to non-Islamic attitudes).
I don't think I missed any point about menstration Merry. I know there are other parts of the cleaning routine for men and women, it's just Allah, in contradiction to all known medical science, thinks a menstrating women CANNOT be clean. Or do you think menstrating surgeons take a day off to avoid infecting their patients with girl cooties? Y es, I do deliberately try to make it sound ludicous; because it IS. Not Islam being ludicrous, but thinking Allah can be guilty of such silliness being ludicrous.
I was pointing out that IF religion X (say Papua New Guinea Animism) has silly supersticions about menstration, one would not think 'aha! evidence of divine guidance', even if the Papuan Animists think so. On would say 'ah, yet another exmple of women being disciminated against due to primative supersticions'.
Or do you think such supersticions in other faiths are indicative they are also in receipt of divine guidance?
You can only have it one way or the other.
Now, if you hold the Papuan Menstration taboos as being due to ignorance, why would Allah command that Muslims persist in such ignorant supesticions? Why would Allah want his people to copy people who worshiped rocks (no, not a hidden crack at that meteorite thingy) and bushes.
If you hold that such beliefs as indication of divine guidance... you have to ask why divine guidance seems to be baseless gender-predicated discrimination...?
You seem to feel the Qur'an IS reliable. Yes.
Well, we differ. Why do you feel the Qur'an is more relaible than, say the Bible? Despite the grandiose claims made about an unbroken chain of recitation from Muhammad's time to our own, you must know that Islamic scripture has gone through at least two phases of collation and editing, so the Qur'an is no more unchanged since Muhammad said it than the New Testament is since Jesus.
Other proof the Qur'an is not reliable;
- Surah 10 says there are six cretive days. Sura 41 says 8.
- Surah 7 says the Pharoh used crucifiction as a punishment; there is no proof of this at the time.
- Surah 20 says a Samaritan helped build the golden calf; if so the Smaritan neede a time machine as they didn;t exist asa pople until 1,000 after MOses.
- Surah 9 says the Jews believe Ezra is the Son of God. This is utter rubbish.
- Surah 18 says Alexander the Great wa a Mulim and died of old age. Hahahahaha. This is so wong as to be absurd.
Rest assured there are more than enough such errors to show your confidence in the accuracy of the Qur'an is misplaced.
If you are interested we can talk about these topic (evolution and whether the Qur'an is inspired) in another thread.
Cool. I look forward to a chance to explore this topic more, whether on another thread or on my own.I think we should. The lies of (big-C literalistic) Creationists of both Christian and Islamic persuasion make many sincere people think ANY acceptence of evoluton as rejection of god. Such an opinion is the result of a total misrepresentation of evolution by those same Creationists.
I am truly not trying judge anyone (including myself), but when I observe things with which I do not agree, I feel a call to self-reflection and I try to express the hope that others will do the same. I believe we can question motives without judging them. We are doing a lot of that on this thread, imo.
Oh true.
Our enslavement to God in turn means that we have to suppress many of our souls’ desires and inclinations. Therein lies one of the greatest secrets to unleashing our real human potential. This is so because it is our human potential that separates us from the rest of this creation, and it is to the extent that we are able to conquer our physical nature that we realize that spiritual potential.
Yes, but my point was, in part, that bland assurance one is following THE way, in the face of contraindications as I have pointed too, is in no way enslavement to god, but to oneself.
Now is the time to give ourselves to our Lord, totally. The trials and tribulations we are currently witnessing will only intensify as we move closer to the end of time.
Oh please not the Mahdi. Please, do two things for me. Find the Qur'anic reference to the Mahdi. You probably already know I know that you almost cetainly know there isn't any.
No one mentioned the Mahdi, only the end of time.
So you DON'T hold Sunni views about the Mahdi? ALthough your comments NOW show it is not neccesarilly an immediate hope, you do realise before I mentioned it, it did sound like it was very soon. Interesting (and I'd fully expect you to point out such things about me :-)
I don't think you're mean at all. I am frequently trying to examine my desires, but they are often deeply hidden.
They might be hidden, but one can discern what they are by one's ACTIONS. Your actions have drawn you to a faith with many parrallels to that which you grew up in.
I do feel valued equally.
Maybe if you lived in Turkey or Iran, you'd feel differently. Maybe you feel valued equally because you are isolated from any Muslim community and can approach Islam as an anchorite (female hermit), interpret it in your own way, and not be forced on a daily basis to experience it as your sisters in Islam do. Prehaps your feeling of equality would be tempered if you actually had experience of dealing with 'born-in' MUslim males
I hope not, but I pray that if I am committing shirk it will be revealed to me more clearly. The self-examination continues...
Well, some religious traditions actually see shirk as impossible, as they view humans as being PART of the divine. Not that I neccesarily belive that but it is interesting.
Sorry it took so long to get back to you. As I say, I'd be delighted to give my pennies worth on Islamic Creationism and Qur'anic reliability one day.
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jelcat8224
Any time blood flows outside of the body the person (whether male or female) is required to perform ablution. This is not to say that when a man gets a bloody nose he is unclean, as that is not the case. It is simply a time when he must purify himself before praying or entering a house of prayer. A man cannot enter a mosque with a bloody nose any more than a woman can enter while menstruating.
I deal with many 'born-in muslim males' as well as with thier 'born-in muslim wives'. They all feel the same as Merry and I. Again, we aknowledge that women are being abused around the world but this is the case with every religion. It is not just Islam. And regardless of the reasons or the justifications that are given by any of these extreme religionists, it does not make it right, no matter which holy book these justifications percievably come from.
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jelcat8224
Abbadon: Here is a little more information on each of the afore mentioned contradictions in the Quran. I do not want to speak for Merry but I felt that I wanted to have more information on these topics as well.
Alexander The Great Was a Muslim and Died of Old Age:
The Quran does not specify who 'Zulquarnain' is. There is never any specific name given. Some speculate that it was Alexander but most think it ws Cyrus. The description of 'Zulquarnain' in the Quran more aptly fits Cyrus. The directions of his conquests, his belief in one God (Alexander was a polytheist but Cyrus followed Zoroaster who preached belief in one God), the fact that he was a kind and just ruler (history confirms Cyrus' extreme kindness and justice), and his dealings with the jews. In any case, these are both just speculations as, again, it was never specified in the Quran.
Jews Believe Ezra is the Son of God:
This statement was made in reference to jews in medina, not necesarily all jews. There is evidence suggesting that there were jews in medina and yemen who shared this mystical view of Ezra and believed that his being raised to life after 100 years could not have been possible unless he had been the son of God. Another point is that the jews who heard this verse recited at the time did not dispute it as they had been eager to do in other instances.
Six Days Or Eight Days of Creation?:
The Qur'an in these verses was actually saying that the basic structure of the earth was created in two (2) days. Later on, mountains, seas and other paraphernalia required for the sustenance of living organisms on this basic structure of the earth were designed and created. And all this work (including the creation of the earth and the designing and provision of the paraphernalia) was completed in a total of four (4) days. The two days of creation it took to create the earth is included in the four creative days mentioned to create the things on the earth. After this, the skies were modeled and seven heavens were created in two (2) days. Thus the total time involved in the creation of the earth and the heavens totalled to six (6) days -- not eight (8) days.
Pharoah Used Crucifixion:
Oxford Companion to the Bible defines " Crucifixion " as:Crucifixion is the act of nailing, binding or impaling a living victim or sometimes a dead person to a cross, stake or tree whether for executing the body or for exposing the corpse. New Catholic Encyclopaedia defines " Crucifixion " as: Crucifixion developed from a method of execution by which the victim was fastened to an upright stake either by impaling him on it or by tying him to it with thongs ...
The history of crucifixion is far too long for me to try to condense here. This link will take you through all the secular and historical evidence which shows that crucifixion was in practice LONG before the romans began employing it!
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/crucify.html
A Samartain Helped Build the Golden Calf:
The name shomronim that appears in II Kings 17:29 is associated with the worship of idols. However, the Samaritans do not address themselves by this name at all. They call themselves shamerin
, that is "keepers" or "observers" of the Torah. [13] The Samaritans themselves make a clear distinction between their own ancestors and the inhabitants of Samaria. Put simply, shomronim means the "inhabitants of Samaria" and it has nothing to do with shamerin, "keepers" or "observers" of the Torah, which the Samaritans use for themselves. In fact, a long line of Samaritan scholarship has already pointed out this fact. Encyclopaedia Judaica under the entry " Samaritans " says:Little guidance is obtained from the name of the Samaritans. The Bible uses the name Shomronim once, in II Kings 17:29, but this probably means Samarians rather than Samaritans . The Samaritans themselves do not use the name at all; they have long called themselves Shamerin; i.e., "keepers" or "observers" of the truth = al ha-amet, both the short and long forms being in constant use in their chronicles. They take the name Shomronim to mean inhabitants of the town of Samaria built by Omri (cf. I Kings 16:24), where the probable origin of the word Shomronim is to be found). [17] ... T he Samaritans are the direct descendants of the Joseph tribes, Ephraim and Manasseh, and until the 17th century C.E. they possessed a high priesthood descending directly from Aaron through Eleazar and Phinehas .
Clearly, if the Samaritans trace their origins from the time of Joseph's descendants, then they were certainly in existence in the time of Moses. There is also the study of their genetic history, as recent studies have shown that Samaritains produce the highest inbreeding coefficient record for any population. Studies from the Y-chromosome analysis concludes that the samaritains did indeed descend from the Isrealites.
Here is the link to the rest of the artical if you would like more information on this subject.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/samaritan.html
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LittleToe
Have you ever read the Insight volumes?
So now you're claiming that Cyrus may have been a Muslim, as if that's better than Alexander having been one? And are you truly confessing a belief that Zoroastrianism is a root of Islam? That should please the Sufis... Shame so many of them have lost their lives over time, though.
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Merry Magdalene
Thanks, Jelcat, for your input. Very interesting. And I appreciate your trying to make the point about blood again.
Abaddon:
I don't think I missed any point about menstration Merry. I know there are other parts of the cleaning routine for men and women, it's just Allah, in contradiction to all known medical science, thinks a menstrating women CANNOT be clean. Or do you think menstrating surgeons take a day off to avoid infecting their patients with girl cooties? Y es, I do deliberately try to make it sound ludicous; because it IS. Not Islam being ludicrous, but thinking Allah can be guilty of such silliness being ludicrous.
Honestly, there is nothing in Islam indicating that there should be any superstitious fear or disgust toward menstruation any more than any other cause of bleeding! Islam does not promote ignorant superstitions but warns people against them. Surgery is fine while menstruating, just not formal prayer, because one cannot wash for prayer after bleeding if one is continuing to bleed. Surgery has different cleanliness requirements than Salat. That is all.
I think we should. The lies of (big-C literalistic) Creationists of both Christian and Islamic persuasion make many sincere people think ANY acceptence of evoluton as rejection of god. Such an opinion is the result of a total misrepresentation of evolution by those same Creationists.
I am interested in exploring this more as it is a topic I know little about. From what I have been able to discern so far it seems to me that some creationists got drawn into a false debate against evolution due to claims made by both materialists (trying to use evolution to disprove God and creation) and other creationists (trying to do the opposite). One of Allah's names is translated "the Evolver" so I have no problem with the idea of creation through evolution. My problem is with saying that everything came from nothing or was just always here, without a Creator that exists outside time and space and beyond our comprehension. I recently was researching the entropy versus evolution debate and found that my own uninformed opinion may well have been quite mistaken on that. I am still reading.
So you DON'T hold Sunni views about the Mahdi? ALthough your comments NOW show it is not neccesarilly an immediate hope, you do realise before I mentioned it, it did sound like it was very soon. Interesting (and I'd fully expect you to point out such things about me :-)
Sorry, I didn't intend to make it sound soon. Some Muslims do feel this way due to various "signs." I prefer to cultivate a sense of readiness that comes from not knowing when, just as I don't know when my own death will come, so it is best to do all we can right here and right now. And all I said was that no one mentioned the Mahdi in my quote, nor did I. You were reacting to something that wasn't there.
I do feel valued equally.
Maybe if you lived in Turkey or Iran, you'd feel differently. Maybe you feel valued equally because you are isolated from any Muslim community and can approach Islam as an anchorite (female hermit), interpret it in your own way, and not be forced on a daily basis to experience it as your sisters in Islam do. Prehaps your feeling of equality would be tempered if you actually had experience of dealing with 'born-in' MUslim males.
I am glad that Jelcat addressed her own experience with this as I have none of my own other than on-line. I don't recall the context of my above statement, but I don't think I meant that I feel valued equally by men (which is not of primary importance to me) but by God, as expressed through the Qur'an. I know how men can be. I grew up around males who often made a point of letting me know that females are inferior to males, and none of them were Muslims and not all of them were religious in any way. I watched with great interest a documentary by a Muslim woman called The Mosque and Me (I think) that looked into some of the male prejudice against females in mosques throughout Canada and America. She also spoke to a Muslim scholar who showed that such mens' prejudice was not supported by the Qur'an or the Sunnah and should be corrected.
Thanks for the on-going discussion. Some people don't like to debate with me IRL, thinking I want them to immediately capitulate and agree with everything I say or else shut up. I don't. How can you ever get to the meat and marrow of things that way? Best wishes for a good week.
~Merry
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jelcat8224
Islam teaches that all the prophets from Abraham to Moses to Jesus (PBUT) were muslim. It is not believed that Islam started with Muhammed (PBUH), since the word only means submission to one God. Muhammed (PBUH) did not bring a new Religion, just the final message of the monotheistic religion that had been followed by all faithful worshipers of God throughout history. The fact that Cyrus lived before Muhammad's time (PBUH) does not mean that he could not have been a muslim.
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Abaddon
jelcat
Any time blood flows outside of the body the person (whether male or female) is required to perform ablution.
So if you use tampons or those new plastic cup thingies and prevent menstral blood from leaving the body then you are clean enough to enter the mosque (albeit in a seperate secion to underline just how equal everyone is)? This is a rhetorical question, I know there is no such exception, which illustrates my entire point. The prohibition against menstrating women is NOTHING to do with uncleanliness as even if they are not suffering a bloodflow outside the body they STILL cannot enter a mosque because they are a menstrating woman.
Come on ladies. Think of how fervently JW women argue that NOT being allowed to teach, male 'headship' and having to wear a hanky on their head if they say a prayer in front of a baby boy is not discriminatory. We know how hollow that sounds. Listen to yourselves. Compare and contrast; maybe you can explain to me why your justifictions for differentiation in THIS instance are not as hollow; they sound it to me but obviously convince you.
Again, we aknowledge that women are being abused around the world but this is the case with every religion. It is not just Islam.
I am glad you acknowledge that Islam, as other religions, has practisoners who abuse women.
And regardless of the reasons or the justifications that are given by any of these extreme religionists, it does not make it right, no matter which holy book these justifications percievably come from.
So you are willing to acknowledge that in the countries or regions of countries where Sharia law holds sway (in practice) over secular law women demonstrably do suffer disadvantage over and above that of women in countries with secular legal systems?
http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?reportid=28054
Re. your comments about Cyrus/Alexander; what Little Toe said - either way the Qur'an is WRONG.
Re. Samaritans, there is no trace of a seperate Samaritan community co-existing with the Jews at the time of the Exodus; indeed, if there were, they'd have been purged just as many Israelites were, as their beliefs were not orthodox. Nor is it possible that the Qur'an is referring to a Samarian, as the area known as Samaria dates to the reign of King Omri of Israel, about 870BC, hundreds of years after Moses. At the time of Moses the area would hve been occupied by one of the tribes the Israelites ethnically cleansed during the first Jewish invasion of the Levant. - either way the Qur'an is WRONG.
Another point is that the jews who heard this verse recited at the time did not dispute it as they had been eager to do in other instances.
You mean the text you trust in says the Jews did not despute it. This is like saying the Bible is accurate because it says 'all scriopture is inspired of god and beneficial'. You are using internal consistency as an argument for the Qur'an being accurate. One can say Lord of the Rings is internally consistent, but no one would ever argue it is accurate outside of its own narrative space.
Oh, and JW's have been known to claim that all the faithful men of old were Jehovah's Witnesses; Islam pactising such revisonism is not a surprise.
Merry
I am interested in exploring this more as it is a topic I know little about. From what I have been able to discern so far it seems to me that some creationists got drawn into a false debate against evolution due to claims made by both materialists (trying to use evolution to disprove God and creation)...
No materialist who knows anything worthwhile about evolutionary theory would claim evolution proved god was not possible, or that some form of creation was not possible.
One of Allah's names is translated "the Evolver" so I have no problem with the idea of creation through evolution.
Good!
My problem is with saying that everything came from nothing or was just always here, without a Creator that exists outside time and space and beyond our comprehension.
Yeah, you know that is 'special pleading'? Being a sensible person you are wary of claims about something coming from nothing or always having been there. However, this sensibleness evapourates if one talks about Allah, as you are willing to accept this is the case for Allah on the basis of an 'explanation' which is NOT an explanation ('that exists outside time and space'). It is someone SAYING it. That is not proof.
Why the double standard?
I recently was researching the entropy versus evolution debate and found that my own uninformed opinion may well have been quite mistaken on that. I am still reading.
Oh, the classic Creationist allegation that evolution is impossible due to the law of entropy? Which is derided both by evolutionits AND physicists as it is based on a willful ignorance of what the law actually is and its applicability in open and closed systems. I'm glad you have spotted it.
I am glad that Jelcat addressed her own experience with this as I have none of my own other than on-line. I don't recall the context of my above statement, but I don't think I meant that I feel valued equally by men (which is not of primary importance to me) but by God, as expressed through the Qur'an.
Oh, it is an important difference (god and men). But I remain to be convinced that god as expressed in the Qur'an really sees women as equal to men - like I say above, you guys might be convinced, but me... your explanation of how such demarkation and differentiation IS equality do not convince me.
I suppose the point I am making is that if one takes a literalistic approach towards the Qur'an as direct revealed truth, then one ends up with a societal structure where women are disadvantaged. I grew up and went to school with Muslims. I have worked with Muslims. I have taught Muslims (English) and spent time discussing topics like those we discuss hre to extend their knoweldge of English. I say what I see.
I know how men can be. I grew up around males who often made a point of letting me know that females are inferior to males, and none of them were Muslims and not all of them were religious in any way. I watched with great interest a documentary by a Muslim woman called The Mosque and Me (I think) that looked into some of the male prejudice against females in mosques throughout Canada and America. She also spoke to a Muslim scholar who showed that such mens' prejudice was not supported by the Qur'an or the Sunnah and should be corrected.
Errrr... as per previous point, that is just ONE bloke and his opinions. Want me to dig up some other Imam saying something nasty about women and using traditonal scripture of some sort to support it? Which of the two is right? They both THINK they are, they both claim their opinion are supported by scripture.
Thanks for the on-going discussion. Some people don't like to debate with me IRL, thinking I want them to immediately capitulate and agree with everything I say or else shut up. I don't. How can you ever get to the meat and marrow of things that way? Best wishes for a good week.
No worries. Capitulate isn't in my dictionary, although I can be convinced with the right evidence ;-)
, that is "keepers" or "observers" of the Torah. [13] The Samaritans themselves make a clear distinction between their own ancestors and the inhabitants of Samaria. Put simply, shomronim means the "inhabitants of Samaria" and it has nothing to do with shamerin, "keepers" or "observers" of the Torah, which the Samaritans use for themselves. In fact, a long line of Samaritan scholarship has already pointed out this fact. Encyclopaedia Judaica under the entry " Samaritans " says: