The Question Non-Jws hate to hear! (Unless they're athiests)

by Mad 77 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Arthur

Mad:
I have no objections to JWs coming on this site and asking serious, tough-minded questions and debating people on various points. These discussions can be very interesting and enlightening. But, it's obvious now that this really was not the intention of this thread. I get the feeling that you are just trying to antagonize people and get a reaction. So far, you remind me of a child who likes to pull his sisters hair just to get a reaction out of her.
I don't have a problem with active JWs coming on here and debating people. But, it gets very tiresome and boring when they come on here and just waste forum space creating useless threads where they merely try to get attention. Being a JW doesn't make you a "troll". It is threads like this one that we call "trolling".
DanTheMan

Is Jesus going to kill everybody who believes in the Trinity?
Anti-Christ

DanTheMan, now that's a good question!!!
Mad

Terry wrote: It amazes me that posts and replies can go on and on without ever taking the time to DEFINE what they are talking about. What constitutes the purpose and practice of WORSHIP?
Mad writes: Be amazed no longer! To sum up the dictionary- worship is giving someone or something the highest honor!
What is the point of it? Where is the value accruing to the one worshipped?
Mad writes: When you love and respect someone, it is a good feeling to know they love and respect you. When you do something really great for someone, it's only natural to enjoy the the heartfelt thanks and gratitude from the one you helped.

Is it a monstrous ego that must be fed every nanosecond with prostrate mumblings of praise?
Mad writes: That's beginning to sound like YOU!
Isn't that psychiatric behavior of the highest order?
Mad writes: DEFINITELY you!
What possible benefit can Jehovah obtain from worship? Nobody ever takes a moment to analyze this. It is just taken as a given.
Mad writes: Benefit! It's a bond of love- members of a family...but then I suppose when you see your dad, you say "Hey, Guy!" and just walk on by...
Take any human relationship where a person of awesome power and superiority is placed beside an "unworthy" subject. The person of power, wealth and prestige demands behavior which demonstrates the disparity between them and enforces these differences by demanding protocol language and ritual. The DISTANCE between them is created for the purpose of maintaining the illusion of superiority/inferiority.
Mad writes: The True God DEMANDS nothing- look at the results in this world! Are you PROUDof it?
Jehovah, as a parent, cannot resemble a loving father by his obsessive and compulsive protocols of praise and ritual IF he really seeks union with his children.
Mad writes: Aha! The Last Believer in Dr. Spock!
Somebody take a moment and parse this for me.....I just can't get my teeny weeny mind around the need of it all.
Mad writes: You summed it up better than I!
As the Brits say, "What's it all in aid of?"
Mad writes: Wha-?
Mad

Rich Vinny writes: Poor Madd, he keeps trying to make a point. But never seems to be able to.
Mad writes: Maybe it's because your HEAD is pointed.

Here is the problem you have on your hands now Mr Madd; I am not convinced that the Trinity teaching is scriptural. I am more on your side of this issue than on the side of some hard-core Trinitarians out there. I am still examining the evidence. I have followed some of these threads and read other sites. But to be honest, this subject of the Trinity is not really at the top of my priority list. And here's why: Trinitarians believe there is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. / JW's believe there is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Trinitarians and JW's simply disagree with just what exact role each plays. Is the Holy Spirit an "Impersonal" active force, or instead a "Personal" active force? I really do not care which it is to be honest. That, to me, is much more difficult to prove that the relationship between The Father and the Son.

I do know this though, the Holy Spirit helps me to direct my life. It plays a vital role in my life today. I receive power, I receive comfort, I receive many things that give evidence to me, that my Grand Creator is with me and is helping me move forward as a Christian today. Nothing you could do or say can take this realization away from me. I am no longer a JW and I still feel God and His Holy Spirit is with me. So now what? Is Jesus equal to the Father, or is Jesus subject to the Father? I have my opinion. It would be more in harmony with your opinion Madd-man. Could I be wrong? Yes, it's always possible. And I will continue to examine this issue. Would it though make a difference to me if I learned and came to believe that Jesus IS equal to His Father? My honest answer is no, it would not make a difference to me. Either way, Jesus is the one who sacrificed his life for me. The Father sent him to do that. I am forever indebted to BOTH regardless of their exact, specific position in relation with one to the other. MOST people that I know of, who are Christians, that are not JW's do not believe that Jesus is equal to the Father. I was raised as a Methodist, Baptist and Catholic and I never felt that way even then. Same goes for many I know today.

There are some that are more opinionated about this issue. Fine, I respect their views too. They do have scriptures that can support their point of view to a fair degree to THEM. It's not a complete slam dunk on either side, in my opinion Madddog. Though I tend to believe Jesus is subject to the Father forever. Again, if He is not, it would not change anything to me. I am forever grateful to BOTH. I have always prayed to the Father through the Son.

The bottom line, in my opinion, is this:

Whether Jesus is equal to the Father or not; Whether the Holy Spirit is Personal or Impersonal; Whether there is a burning Hell or eternal sleep-like non existence; whether there will life in Heaven itself or on a Paradise Earth; whether the 144,000 is literal or figurative and probably another 100 different things I could list here, what REALLY matters here is that we, as professed followers of Christ, live each day of our lives trying to imitate him as best we possibly can.

Applying His teachings in our life.

The Golden Rule for example.

The Sermon on the Mount teachings.

Cultivating the Fruitage of the Spirit.

Being like the "Good Samaritan".

Showing Love to all mankind.

Working more on humility.

Being less judgmental.

More patient, more forgiving, more helpful and loving as well as another 100 other things I could post here.

These things are what really matters folks.
Mad writes: Forgot one- probably the most IMPORTANT, my friend: John 4: 22 (ASV)- Ye worship that which ye know not: we worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.
23- But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers.
24- God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
Whatever these other things end up being, we can all know one thing for sure, it will be wonderful. If life after death is in Heaven or on a Paradise Earth, it will be fine with me. Whether Jesus is equal to the Father or subject to Him, it will not change my love for either of Them. Just focus on being a True Christian is what worship to me is all about. The rest will all be Grand, whatever it turns out to be. I'll be sure to take it. If I am ever given the opportunity.
Mad writes: Beautifully put, Vinny! But if you REALLY have God's Spirit- do you REALLY think it could be a Holy GHOST??? True it may NOT be that important to know- but I can't imagine NOT knowing; you don't have to try very hard; it comes naturally!

So even though I still tend to feel more or less the same as you on the subject of the Trinity, I have also nonetheless flatly rejected the WT Society for the many reasons already stated throughout this website.
Mad writes: Sad to hear that: I've been a JW for over 30 years- and only ONCE ran into Phonies, as this board states. I opposed & exposed the hypocrasy to the congregation, went to another- and have nothing but inspiring examples in the congregations. This board distorts things to make it look like we are all Mind-Controlled Zombie-Demons of the WTBS! Always realise that, as Proverbs states, the Heart is easily corrupted!
If you think that this one issue alone gives the WT Society a free pass on all these other problematic things, you are very mistaken. The blood issue is one that I have dissected inside and out. My goal was always to get to the truth about it. I never felt quite right about how it was applied to blood transfusions. EVER. But I just went along with the Society anyway. I was younger then; more naive than now. But when I learned (within the past year) how the Society had made so many mistakes, throughout its entire history, it instantly raised red flags on that one issue of BLOOD. They were wrong before and cold be wrong again now, was my line of thought. Well, after an exhaustive examination, that covered every WT CD article written, as well as medical journals and other religious opinions all over, I came to the absolute, 100 percent conclusion that the WT Policy on blood was WRONG. As wrong on blood as they were before on Vaccinations, Organ Transplants, Alternative Service, End of the World Predictions and a host of other issues.
Mad writes: Correct on the many mistakes, wrong (my opinion- and you know the illustration about opinions!) about blood! The mistake was on listening to anything OTHER than waht God tells us in scripture! Those other sources would have you believe all KINDS of nonsense! Look at Congress!

This Blood stand by the Society is CURRENT by the way. The WT is WRONG Mr. Madd.
Mad writes: I was SAVED by a blood transfusion before learning the Truth; I need no WTBS to see what God says on the matter- altho, as a Catholic, I would have NEVER been able to find my way around the Bible!

That alone destroys the "One True Faith" status. People die for that policy, right now, today.
Mad writes: the One True Faith is the one that goes beyond the mantra "I accept Jesus as my Lord & Savior"! They are the ones that do- and OBEY him.And in so doing, come to know and honor his God & Father!

And we still have literally hundreds, thousands actually of other problems to contend with in addition to Blood. Shunning for disagreements. Shunning for disassociating. No beards. No voting, birthdays, holidays, yoga, bingo. Not to mention a dozen end of the world mispredictions, the NO Vaccinations, NO Organ Transplant, NO Alternative Service life wrecking policies FORCED on all JW's and then quietly made conscience decisions without apologies. I can post many pages more if you'd like.

Mad writes: What a potporri- some right some wrong! I won't like you to, thanks- but do so if it makes you feel better!

Now, you can stick to the Trinity-like issues if you wish. But just be clear, you are not dealing with the real problems here. I have followed you around with a list of the real problems for quite some time. Yet you just hide from dealing with those issues again and again.
Mad writes: Nope! You have been so insulting that I've never taken you very serious, my friend! But I have a simple mind- PLEASE just bring out one thing at a time!

Why not just turn in your DA letter and move forward to better things?
Mad writes: My brothers & sisters have the same goal as I: bring honor & praise to Jesus our Lord- and especially to Jehovah His God & Father...thank you for putting up with my sarcasm!
Agape,
the Mad JW

Kid A says:..."Those who have analyzed it are now atheists"...

**** Sorry kiddie-A, NOT true. Why not tell the board how we just so happened to "get here" then.
Mad

Gill writes:"How about the question that all Christians hate to hear: Was Jesus really Divine or was this an invention of Constantine and his cronies to keep the Empire together?"
Mad writes: That's the easiest question of them all; Jesus is verified as historical BEFORE Constantine.
Mad
Mad

BC writes: "First do me a favor and draw a large circle on a piece of paper and in the center of the circle write "The Only True God" Outside of the circle write "false gods" Leave room to fill in the Bible answer for both.John 17:1-4 Jesus speaking to the Father clearly calls him "the only true God" So let's put "The Father" in our circle.2 Corinthians 4:4 Satan is called "a god of this system" Would you put Satan in the circle, or out? I believe we would both put him out.1 Kings 19:18 / Romans 11:4 "Baal" A god worshiped by thousands Would Baal go in the circle, or out? Again we agree to put Baal with the false gods outside of the circle.John 1:1 NWT "a god" speaking of Jesus Would Jesus go in the circle as a true god? or out of the circle as a false god? Lets let Isaiah help us before we answer.Isaiah 9:6 Christ is clearly called "Mighty God" and note Isaiah 10:20,21 uses the exact words for Jehovah "Mighty God" So we can add Jesus and the Old testament name Jehovah inside our circle. But wait, if there is only "One True God" and I still have one more to add in my circle, who can we make this all fit because we have The Father, Jesus, and the name Jehovah all True God.Lets get some help from the apostel Paul. And at the same time see if the Watchtower is correct when it says "God" is a Title. Galatians 4:8&9 Paul says they were "slaves to those who by nature are not gods" What do you think Paul was saying here? Was he referring to their substance, who they were made of? Was Baal not the True God because he didnt have the right title? Or was it because he was rock. Is Satan a false god because he didnt have the right title? Or because he is angelic by nature, not made up of "God" substance. If I refer to Tom, Dick, and Harry I am talking about three unique and different people, who are one thing by nature, human. There are millions of living persons, men, women, children, old people who are all one thing, human by nature.There are millions of spirit beings, Michael, Gabriel, the angel of the church of Sardis, etc. Yet they are all one thing by nature, angel.If there is only One True God substance or nature as Pauls says, then it is simple to test anyone or anything claiming to be God. Just find out what they are made of? Wood, Stone, Angel, Human (All false gods) Who else can we add inside the circle? You decide by reading in your own bible the following verses. John 14:15-20 ; 15:25,26 ; 16:6-15 , Romans 8:9-17 ; 2 Tim 1:14 and Acts 5:3,4 ( Ask yourself, can you lie to a light switch? How about a dog? How about a rock? What is the only thing you can lie to? )
ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION: Yes Jesus while on earth relied on those who by nature are God. When man killed him, he raised himself from the dead "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up" Scripture also says the father raised him, and the holy spirity raised his body from the dead.
Mad writes: So are you saying Jesus IS the Father, and the Holy Spirit? Don't you see that Jesus was going to raise himself up by being faithful to the end?
So God raised Jesus from the dead. When they came to arrest him, what happened? John 18:6 John 21:25 The world would not contain all that could be written about Christ!!! Can you find a verse that says that about Jehovah? Does the Watchtower teach that Jesus should be honored the same as the Father? No? Read John 5:23
Who said we hate to hear this question? I am among millions of Non-Jws who are Christian and love to answer this question with scripture, in fact using the New World Translation (Watchtower published)
First do me a favor and draw a large circle on a piece of paper and in the center of the circle write "The Only True God" Outside of the circle write "false gods" Leave room to fill in the Bible answer for both.
John 17:1-4 Jesus speaking to the Father clearly calls him "the only true God" So let's put "The Father" in our circle.
2 Corinthians 4:4 Satan is called "a god of this system" Would you put Satan in the circle, or out? I believe we would both put him out.
1 Kings 19:18 / Romans 11:4 "Baal" A god worshiped by thousands Would Baal go in the circle, or out? Again we agree to put Baal with the false gods outside of the circle.
John 1:1 NWT "a god" speaking of Jesus Would Jesus go in the circle as a true god? or out of the circle as a false god? Lets let Isaiah help us before we answer.
Isaiah 9:6 Christ is clearly called "Mighty God" and note Isaiah 10:20,21 uses the exact words for Jehovah "Mighty God" So we can add Jesus and the Old testament name Jehovah inside our circle.
But wait, if there is only "One True God" and I still have one more to add in my circle, who can we make this all fit because we have The Father, Jesus, and the name Jehovah all True God.
Lets get some help from the apostel Paul. And at the same time see if the Watchtower is correct when it says "God" is a Title. Galatians 4:8&9 Paul says they were "slaves to those who by nature are not gods" What do you think Paul was saying here? Was he referring to their substance, who they were made of? Was Baal not the True God because he didnt have the right title? Or was it because he was rock. Is Satan a false god because he didnt have the right title? Or because he is angelic by nature, not made up of "God" substance.
If I refer to Tom, Dick, and Harry I am talking about three unique and different people, who are one thing by nature, human. There are millions of living persons, men, women, children, old people who are all one thing, human by nature.
There are millions of spirit beings, Michael, Gabriel, the angel of the church of Sardis, etc. Yet they are all one thing by nature, angel.
If there is only One True God substance or nature as Pauls says, then it is simple to test anyone or anything claiming to be God. Just find out what they are made of? Wood, Stone, Angel, Human (All false gods)
Who else can we add inside the circle? You decide by reading in your own bible the following verses. John 14:15-20 ; 15:25,26 ; 16:6-15 , Romans 8:9-17 ; 2 Tim 1:14 and Acts 5:3,4 ( Ask yourself, can you lie to a light switch? How about a dog? How about a rock? What is the only thing you can lie to? )
ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION: Yes Jesus while on earth relied on those who by nature are God. When man killed him, he raised himself from the dead "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up" Scripture also says the father raised him, and the holy spirity raised his body from the dead. So God raised Jesus from the dead. When they came to arrest him, what happened? John 18:6 John 21:25 The world would not contain all that could be written about Christ!!! Can you find a verse that says that about Jehovah?
Does the Watchtower teach that Jesus should be honored the same as the Father? No? Read John 5:23
Mad writes: YES- because all authority has been GIVEN to him by Jehovah.
Who's name is most powerfull? Luke 4:33-37, 10:17 Acts 19:13-20 Mark 9:38-41 (Why does the Watchtower say to use the name Jehovah when NO scripture does?)
Mad writes: Because the Hebrew text quoted had the name- just because later copies in Greek substitute kuiros/Lord is no reason for US to change what the scriptures said!
Thanks for letting me share,
BC
Mad writes:Thank you very MUCH for sharing, my friend!
Mad

I'm starting to get fond of you, Jgnat- and that SCARES me!
LOLOLO!
Agape,
the Mad JW
kid-A

This board distorts things to make it look like we are all Mind-Controlled Zombie-Demons of the WTBS!
> No distortion is necessary with brain-dead JWs such as yourself posting here! By the way, do your local elders know you are posting here yet?
Let us know how your judicial meeting turns out!
p.s. you might want to edit your thread title, Einstein; its "atheist" not "athiest"....or maybe thats how the Watchtower spells it?
Mad

Arthur wrote:I have no objections to JWs coming on this site and asking serious, tough-minded questions and debating people on various points. These discussions can be very interesting and enlightening. But, it's obvious now that this really was not the intention of this thread. I get the feeling that you are just trying to antagonize people and get a reaction. So far, you remind me of a child who likes to pull his sisters hair just to get a reaction out of her. I don't have a problem with active JWs coming on here and debating people. But, it gets very tiresome and boring when they come on here and just waste forum space creating useless threads where they merely try to get attention. Being a JW doesn't make you a "troll". It is threads like this one that we call "trolling".
Mad writes: Sorry you feel that way- I assure you that was NOT my intention. Truth is ALWAYS antagonising, it seems! If you really feel that way- why not ignore it as I do a lot of posts in which I feel the same?
mAD

The Question Non-Jws hate to hear! (Unless they're athiests)

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