Did the heavenly calling cease in 1935? Not anymore!

by AnnOMaly 288 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I think we are all missing something pretty significant here!

    Thinking like a JW, my instinctive reaction to this article would be:

    If the anointed didn't stop being gathered in 1935, then when did they stop being gathered? A couple of years later maybe? How about 1940? No that won't do because most of the governing body were still not baptised then. So how about 1950, or 1960? I suppose it will have to be as late as that to include all the governing body. But hold on a minute, there were over a million Witnesses by 1960! The whole thing about the 1935 cut-off was that, although there was no precise biblical basis for it, it made intuitive sense because the number of Witnesses back then was still small enough to make a transition from the gathering of the last of the anointed to the beginning of the gathering of the great crowd look plausible. But move the date for the cut-off forward even by a few years, and that transition no longer looks plausible.

    Getting rid of 1935 might seem like a necessary fix for a GB composed almost entirely of "replacements" under the old scheme, but it may have ramifications beyond what they have yet considered. Getting rid of 1935 solves the embarrassing situation that the whole cut-off/replacements theory caused. But it creates a much bigger problem. It undermines the whole concept that the anointed were being gathered since the first century until a specific point in recent history when the great crowd began to be brought in.

    You simply can't think of a new cut-off point because none would make sense. Make it too early, and most of the GB are still "replacements". (plus a new date a few years later would simply store up the problem for the near future all over again) Make it too late and you are left with trying to explain why Jehovah was still looking for anointed ones when there were millions of Witnesses already. Were most of the millions of Witnesses in 1960s not good enough? Did he reject all the ones that came in the truth in the 1940s and 1950s in favour of the current crop of (mainly) weirdo younger "anointed" ones? My goodness, the more you think about this "new light" the less sense it makes!

    If the anointed didn't stop being gathered in 1935, then it is hard to see why we should think they ever did/will stop being gathered. And if that is the case, then it radically undermines the idea that the 144 000 is a literal number. You might go so far as to say it undermines the whole concept of different "classes" of believer.

    I think the GB might have opened a can of worms here. Although they have no doubt been forced into it by circumstances, it looks like a can of worms nonetheless.

    In solving an increasingly obvious time-scale problem, I think they have created an even larger conceptual inconsistency.

    Slim

  • ThomasCovenant
    ThomasCovenant

    Hi

    Watchtower 1982 15th February pp30-31

    ''Many would be invited but only a precious few chosen. (Matthew 22:2, 14) In time the prescribed but limited number of 144,000 would be reached. After this no more would be anointed by holy spirit as witness that they had the heavenly hope, unless, in a rare occurrence, the unfaithfulness of one of the remaining ‘chosen ones’ made a replacement necessary.—Romans 8:16; 11:19; Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-5.

    15

    When we consider how Jehovah has been dealing with his people during the ‘harvest period,’ it seems evident that the heavenly calling ingeneral was completed about the year 1935, when the hope of the "great crowd" of Revelation 7:9-17 was properly understood to be an earthly one''

    Thanks

    Thomas Covenant

  • ThomasCovenant
    ThomasCovenant

    Hi

    Watchtower 2002 1st February p20

    6

    This "heavenly calling" began at Pentecost 33 C.E. and, in the main, appears to have ended in the mid-1930’s

    Thanks

    Thomas Covenant

  • greendawn
    greendawn
    The big difference is that anyone who smells a rat here will have the internet at their disposal which not everyone, if anyone, had in 95

    In 1995 there were globally just 16 million internet users (10 million in 1994) and today there are about 1.1 billion (1 100 million) users that's one in every six persons have access. The internet began really taking off around 1994, in 1991 as during the gulf war, there were probably 20 000 users all of them academics, military men and geeks. Those are the stats as reliable as they usually are.

    Who can believe that Christianity over 1 900 years would failed to provide 144 000 saints and would have to wait until our times for a half baked "christian" religion (???) to provide one third of them in just a century? That's how much hot air they have in their heads. Even Christ predicted their coming in the form of the other sheep a class that makes up most of the JWs! Remember two members of the GB failed due to being gay.

  • ThomasCovenant
    ThomasCovenant

    Hi

    Sorry to be a bore

    Watchtower 1992 1st March pp20-21

    The brilliant flashes of spiritual light that came through TheWatchtower in the 1920’s and 1930’s indicate that the gathering of the remnant of anointed ones was practically completed during that period.

    Thanks

    Thomas Covenant

  • ThomasCovenant
    ThomasCovenant

    Hi again

    I'm just going through the CD Rom printing off this so as to contrast the 'Old Shite' with the 'New Shite'.

    I want to put it forward to my parents and see what they think.

    Watchtower 1995 15th February p19

    6

    In recent years the number of the little flock still on earth has become quite small. This was evident from the 1994 Memorial report. In some 75,000 congregations of Jehovah’s people worldwide, only 8,617 demonstrated by partaking of the emblems their profession to be members of the remnant. (Matthew 26:26-30) In contrast, the total attendance was 12,288,917. Anointed Christians know that this is to be expected. Jehovah has established a limited number, 144,000, to make up the little flock, and he has been gathering it since Pentecost 33 C.E. Logically, the calling of the little flock would draw to a close when the number was nearing completion, and the evidence is that the general gathering of these specially blessed ones ended in 1935.

    Thanks

    Thomas Covenant

    (Can't turn off highlighter)

  • dozy
    dozy

    ***

    w822/15p.30pars.14-15"WhatPreventsMefromGettingBaptized?"***

    In time the prescribed but limited number of 144,000 would be reached. After this no more would be anointed by holy spirit as witness that they had the heavenly hope, unless, in a rare occurrence, the unfaithfulness of one of the remaining ‘chosen ones’ made a replacement necessary.—Romans 8:16; 11:19; Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-5.

    15

    When we consider how Jehovah has been dealing with his people during the ‘harvest period,’ it seems evident that the heavenly calling in general was completed about the year 1935, when the hope of the "great crowd" of Revelation 7:9-17 was properly understood to be an earthly one... Logically, Jehovah would select someone who had been associated for many years and who had displayed endurance and loyalty under trial, rather than someone who had only recently become a baptized disciple of Jesus and perhaps was yet unproved in many respects.

    No mention in the new article of a "spirituality threshold" for new anointed ones. And when , as it must , the literal application of 144K goes , then that will be a HUGE doctrinal change with tremendous implications.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Thank you Euphemism. "All," then, except Gerrit Lösch and Tony Morris and... hmm...

    The current change was essential to the legitimity of the current GB, but from here it appears that many avenues are open, depending on the reactions.

    Were they smart they would stop attempting to repress the "anointed option" altogether: it doesn't work anyway; if the rise in Memorial partakers becomes too conspicuous (even without publishing the numbers), which is by no means certain, they can eventually get rid of the literal 144,000 figure. That will make the "anointed option" even more commonplace, and then the renewal of the future GB (whether "anointed"-only or mixed) won't be a problem anymore.

    I can't see them threatened by that issue in the long term in spite of the logical flaws slimboyfat points out. Religions do not stand or fall on logical consistency, but on their ability to renew the interest of their members. Whatever inner debate may result is better to them than the current boredom imho.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Narkissos writes:

    I can't see them threatened by that issue in the long term in spite of the logical flaws slimboyfat points out. Religions do not stand or fall on logical consistency, but on their ability to renew the interest of their members. Whatever inner debate may result is better to them than the current boredom imho.

    I agree that logical errors don't bring down religions (which could stand?), however I do think there is a distinction to be made between problems of logic and problems of coherence. I do not think it is very logical to believe that people who die shortly before Armageddon will be resurrected, whereas they would have been destroyed had they lived a little longer. However illogical that may be though, it does fit coherently within the Witness understanding of eschatology and soteriology. And Jehovah's Witnesses, daughters of the Enlightenment as they are, do take pride in having a rational and coherent system of beliefs.

    I think the problem that the new open-ended view of anointed selection throws up is one of coherence rather than logic. It is simply incoherent to maintain that the anointed were selected first, at the same time as endorsing the view Jehovah was still selecting anointed ones when there were already millions of Jehovah's Witnesses available to choose from. I am sure Witnesses will spot that flaw pretty quick.

    This is not the sort of inconsistency that can be tolerated for long. They will have to come up with a solution. I can suggest two possibilities:

    1) They conclude that the 144 000 is not literal. In fact maybe even conclude that all believers are anointed and break down the distinction between the great crowd and the 144 000. But that would involve admitting they were wrong on some pretty important stuff.

    2) They could maintain the 144 000 is literal, but explain the long tail in the number of anointed by claiming that Jehovah especially prolonged his selection process so that his earthly servants would be provided with anointed guides here on earth up until Armageddon. This is more complicated, but in a perverse kind of way would probably be more appealing to the JW mindset.

    There is no easy way out of this.

    Slim

  • drew sagan
    drew sagan

    slimboyfat,

    I think your #2 explanation is where they are headed. If they could get to the point where they say something to the effect of 'Jehovah knows when the end is going to be and has determined in advance how many anointed will be on earth with the other sheep untill the end of this wicked system'.

    I think this is much more reasonable than thinking the 144,000 number will go away. If that literal interpreation is discarded, then so would much of the Watchtowers authority.

    They simply need a way in order to explain that the anointed will continue to be on earth till the end. In this way they keep their authority and position above the other sheep.

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