Is Atheism/Evolutionism Dangerous? Questions for Unbelievers

by Perry 156 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • lonelysheep
    lonelysheep

    No, Perry, it is not dangerous. People are dangerous creatures when they want to be. What does not having a belief in a diety have to do with it? Nothing.

    I HIGHLY doubt those people you keep referring to, such as at the ballgame, are athiests, P.

    As others have already said, it would be great if you did some outside-of-the-bible research on morality and humans, as well as evolution.

    Let me ask you something, how much reading have you done on the subject of history? History of the US as well as world history? You tell me how "good" it is to be a believer after you see how much violence has been and is still today caused by believers. How many athiests were all for the US invading Iraq, for example.

    Perhaps remembering history-truth is the reason why (after leaving the jw's) I so quickly gave up on wanting to believe in a diety any longer!!!

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Perry:

    It is tempting to answer your questions. But I won't. There are hundreds of books that specifically deal with those issues.

    Why don't you create your own characters and have them argue this out. When you reach closure then post the discussion on board.

    T = Theist

    A = Atheist

    T= How do you live a moral life as an Atheist?

    A=I behave morally even though there is NO God that's going to punish or reward me? I think that is a higher morality than yours.

    T= The only reason you know about morality is that you were born into a world of Theists who have already worked out morality. And they have developed a set of laws that define correct human behavior.

    A= The very existence of laws in a world of Theists is a contradiction. You wouldn't need laws if religion was up to the task of teaching people how they ought to behave and IF they really believed God will punish or reward them for their behavior.

    etc. etc.

    If this subject is of serious interest to you then you ought to construct an argue-log like the example above. Argue both sides. Do the research to make it interesting. The objective of argument is to arrive at truth.

    A lot of the mega-post discussions on this board could be eliminated if people would learn to debate both sides of an issue BEFORE taking it public.

    It's like watching chess players. The best chess players don't sit down to a game of chess without a knowledge of thousands of games. Watching novices play the game is boring. It is a sequence of stupid mistakes.

    I think that's why guys like AlanF have given up discussing these subjects.

    A=

  • TopHat
    TopHat

    I think that's why guys like AlanF have given up discussing these subjects.

    A=

    Thank GOD for that...Amen

  • Norm
    Norm

    When I read the opening of this thread I immediately felt a headache coming on. It is really sad when you realize that people are too fucking dumb even to begin debating with them. It is exceedingly tiresom to discuss with people who haven't even been able to grasp the basics of what they are trying to discuss.

    I am really sorry for being this caustic, but life is to short for this crap.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Perry

    The "A" man does some good (because he just knows) as an abberation to, or in spite of, the violent parts (not withstanding the other parts) of his origin; while the "G" man can do virtually no good at all when compared to the infinite benevolence of his view of his origin.

    Heh. Your view that A-man doing good is a contradiction to his origin is a result of a totally wrong-headed understanding of what evolution is.

    Wolves and Cape Hunting Dogs are fearce killers... that bring food to puppies that are not their own and to sick or injured pack members. Vampire bats will feed other bats who haven't had any luck hunting. Co-operation in social animals can result in a better survival outcome than competition.

    Thus there is no contradiction as your view of what evolution is is at fault.

    Can you briefly state how those authors (or yourself) "know" when they are doing "good".

    When someone says thank you. Or when their actions do not violate the rights of another.

    How does G-man know when they do good? When their actions conform with what some bronze-age goatherd thought was good, and the G-man has the unproven conceit that the bronze-age goat herd was divinely inspired? If this is so, then the Israelite soldiers who killed men, boys, and non-virgin women, and took the virgin girls as sex slaves were doing good; this event is recorded in the Bible. Are you saying this divinely sanctioned action was good Perry?

    RAF

    Believing in evolution is dangerous because it leads to believe that some people are more evoluate than others.

    Find me an evolution textbook that states this; you are saying not what modern evoluionists say, but what anti-evolutionists say. As anti-evolutionists have no facts, they often end up lying. Evolution and god, for a start, are quite compatable. Some religionists like to deny this, as they are interested in simplistic literalism that allows them to sanctify their own opinions, but which also requires they accept obvious mythology, like the Creation account, as fact.

    Believing in God is believing that all of us are alike to some extant

    Other than the non-believers...?

    RAF, you are taking your beliefs as a reasonable modern Christian and assuming they represent religious thought. Most religious thought is very clear on believers and non-believers being VERY unlike. Most religions have killed non-believers. Please find me evolutionists (not political nuts) who are killing each other over a disagreeemnt over claudistics, or who kill people who don't believe in evolution

    Now about evolution if one cell could lead the universe, the process would be exponential (more over if you take the example of the virus which is able to evolve a lot and very fast to stay alive - that being said it also have a problem which lead to be so effective that it forgets about the fact that if he takes too much advantage on his host it kills his host and by that kill himself - so any might take this detail as an argument to say that it is the reason why it is not exponential - but we human are able to make new species of plantes that the evolution process didn't think about it yet in billions of years) SO ...

    RAF, I like you. Take this said in the nice smiley way it is. Read a book about evolution. I can recommend some. You don't have a very good grasp of the subject get it and will obviously reach embaressing and inaccurate conclusions.

    The way humans breed plants et.al. is un-natural selction. Only those possessing the desired characteristics are allowed to breed. WHat humans want in a plant or an animal is not neccesarily good for living in the wild; look at certain breeds of dogs, so wharped by human breeding them for certain features they have trouble breathing and bad hip joints. In the wild the ones with the best chaarcteristics for survival in that environment pass their genes on more frequently than those with poor characteristics for survival. Even something so minor it increases the number of offspring produced by 5% can spread throughout a poplulation of organisms in as little as 200 generations. Your point above isn;t one, simply because you need to take the time out to learn about evolution before slamming it.

  • skyking
    skyking

    TopHat good link about Pol Pot I forgot about this guy just shows you this is a human condition no matter if you are an Atheist or a believer, evil is out there.

    Yet everyone here will have to admit many wars are fought only because of Religion look at the middle east, remember the crusades etc...

    Stalin is another exsample of a bad Atheist that killed millions.

    Maybe some day diffidently not in my life time the world will be free of wars, this will not never happen as long as there is Religion and blind followers that think there religion is the correct one.

  • PrimateDave
    PrimateDave

    So, before I go and read all of the interesting responses to this "Questions for Unbelievers", I should like to address the original post. My apologies if these points are already covered.





    Please present incontrovertible evidence that there is an "all-loving" deity. If there really is a "deity" "out there", how can you know that it is "loving" or anything like the one in your imagination? All I have ever seen in my entire life are people, humans just like me, some of whom claim to know what some god wants me to do based on some books obviously written by other humans who were ignorant of many facts that we take for granted today. What it usually boils down to is a scam to get me to use my life energies to further their cause.





    I propose that many people who believed in god(s) throughout human history have committed gross atrocities in the name of their chosen deity(s), while others who believed in god(s) have upheld the highest moral standards of their culture. Where is there any evidence that the wicked were held any more accountable than the good, except perhaps by human systems of justice?





    I was taught all my life that an all-powerful God of perfect love, justice, wisdom, and power had all things under control. It said so right in the Bible. Since I am rather new at being an atheist, I consider myself handicapped by my former beliefs. I never realized that I had so much power and responsibility for my own life. I want to do what is good for all and help my fellow humans, not because some god said so, but because I can see with my own eyes the consequences of causing harm to myself and others. Had I been taught how the world really works as a child, perhaps I could have accomplished so much more with my life.





    That is a straw man argument against what is a well established scientific theory. The theory of Evolution is modern man's attempt to explain how the millions of species of life that currently inhabit planet Earth got to their current state of development by examining volumes of evidence available from current life forms and the fossil record of previous life forms found within the Earth's crust. As such, the theory of Evolution encompasses and adds to numerous other established sciences such as geology, biology, anthropology, paleontology, and ecology, to name a few that come to mind.

    To say that evolution is about the "survival of the fittest" does not clarify what is meant by the term "fittest". If, as some propose, that being fit means "killing off the weaker", then the oppressive growth of modern industrial civilization based on the economics of greed, at the expense of "weaker" human cultures, species, and ecosystems, can be justified by claiming that it is somehow a "natural" evolutionary process. Therefore, "might makes right," or "obey me or I'll kill you." Now that sounds like God to me.

    What the theory of Evolution can teach us is that diversity is paramount in life. Natural systems operate in cycles. Lifeforms cooperate. Biological systems strive for ecological balance. All natural systems are in a state of flux. Defective lifeforms do not usually reproduce, while lifeforms with useful adaptations can.

    In climax ecosystems the web of life can be highly interconnected. This web gets that way because the lifeforms of a bioregion evolve together. It's what makes the native flora and fauna of places like the Amazon, Australia, and the Kalahari so unique. It also helps us to understand how humankind is upsetting the natural balances that have existed in these regions for millions of years by causing extinctions and introducing new exotic species that didn't evolve within the bioregion.





    What most people in modern democracies want, regardless of whether they believe in the theory of evolution or not, is to live long and happy lives. We evolved as a cooperative species. It is in our own interest to take care of other members of our family and social network. It contributes to our fitness as a species to care for fellow human beings. We can even empathize with people who look different or speak a different language.

    Our success as a species could also be our downfall. We are generally overpopulated on this planet. We consume resources faster than most natural systems can compensate. We have crossed the line from cooperating with our fellow species to genocidal competition with them. Unfortunately, when the resources we need to survive become scarce, we often resort to killing one another, sometimes in the name of God. Social and family ties can break down over perceived differences. A popular difference to kill other people over is religion. Sadly, many people think that God will bless them for killing their fellow man. Under such circumstances, where is the divine accounting?





    I propose that you don't know what you're really talking about. Additionally, you don't know what I believe and why I believe it. Finally, I have to say that the real problem might be a narrow minded preoccupation with what you think has to be real because of your own vested psychological interests.



    Homo postindustrialus)

  • Perry
    Perry

    Hillary-Step wrote:

    As to your question :

    How do you personally determine what is "good". How is it justified?

    As an evolutionist, I will just posit the phrase 'social conditioning

    So then, what justification does the athiest have to believe that social conditioning will accurately determine for him what is "good"? Might what is considered "good" today later be found to be quite "bad" based on future and different social conditioning? If so, how can the life that he lives today be justified?

    It sounds like you're saying that the man cannot know either good or bad but must have those notions dictated to him socially.

  • DanTheMan
    DanTheMan
    So then, what justification does the athiest have to believe that social conditioning will accurately determine for him what is "good"?

    Was it religion or social conditioning that led to the acceptance of slavery as a natural and inevitable human institution until 150 years ago? While I will grant that it was the efforts of religious people that ultimately led to slavery's abolishment, my question is, is that if believers have such rock-solid absolutes that they can rely on to give them moral guidance, then why did the institution of slavery ever exist in Christendom?

    Might what is considered "good" today later be found to be quite "bad" based on future and different social conditioning?

    Yes. see above. Believers and non-believers alike are subject to social conditioning may be rejected as wrong or immoral by later generations.

    If so, how can the life that he lives today be justified?

    I'm not sure what you mean by "justified" here.

  • RAF
    RAF

    Believing in evolution is dangerous because it leads to believe that some people are more evoluate than others.
    Find me an evolution textbook that states this; you are saying not what modern evoluionists say, but what anti-evolutionists say. As anti-evolutionists have no facts, they often end up lying. Evolution and god, for a start, are quite compatable. Some religionists like to deny this, as they are interested in simplistic literalism that allows them to sanctify their own opinions, but which also requires they accept obvious mythology, like the Creation account, as fact.

    I never state anything from anyones point of view ... that's just my way ... It is my opinion (I don't care who is saying what it could be whoever famous or totally unknow - I just agree or not from my perspective of course)

    Believing in God is believing that all of us are alike to some extant
    Other than the non-believers...?
    RAF, you are taking your beliefs as a reasonable modern Christian and assuming they represent religious thought. Most religious thought is very clear on believers and non-believers being VERY unlike. Most religions have killed non-believers. Please find me evolutionists (not political nuts) who are killing each other over a disagreeemnt over claudistics, or who kill people who don't believe in evolution

    I do not think believers and non-believers are unlike (they dont see things on the same perspective but they have their own good and bad ways - that's where they are alike in the important matter).

    And no I have no example of whoever evolutionist killed because of his belief. But to come back on my previous comment I was more talking about the way "some under evoluate" (lol) people think about the fact that some are under evoluate ... remember that I am black ... and that's probably my experience who is talking here ... But I know that the same problem exist with believers.

    but to me those who kill because of religious belief are not belivers ... (they are their own leader in the matter)

    Now about evolution if one cell could lead the universe, the process would be exponential (more over if you take the example of the virus which is able to evolve a lot and very fast to stay alive - that being said it also have a problem which lead to be so effective that it forgets about the fact that if he takes too much advantage on his host it kills his host and by that kill himself - so any might take this detail as an argument to say that it is the reason why it is not exponential - but we human are able to make new species of plantes that the evolution process didn't think about it yet in billions of years) SO ...
    RAF, I like you. Take this said in the nice smiley way it is. Read a book about evolution. I can recommend some. You don't have a very good grasp of the subject get it and will obviously reach embaressing and inaccurate conclusions.

    Well I guess that you have no idea how much I do like you ... Why? because Well : you talk ... you dare saying what a lot wouldn't ... you are very accurate ... you'r witty ... and the list could go on and on.

    But guess What? I just can't adhere to the evolution process from the start ... if you think my statement do not stand because some scientists says this is how it works ... it won't change what I think ... Too much things are not coherent somehow (and I gave you my why = the potential is not reached on billion years to me their is a very intelligent restriction capacity into the process).

    As you said yourself evolution do not exclude God ... I'm not against the idea of evolution itself - I just can't believe in the form of evolution scientist are talking from the start ... (that's it) so then it's all about how we feel about it from our own experience.

    My christianity is from heart, to me every personne who reachs the idea that we need to respect each other is a christian by heart - and just the way you are able to defend the position of those who are not believers because they have their right and are not bad because of that) is a christian position (phylosphically talking).

    It's not and will never be a religion for me ... it's a phylosophy or lets say a state of mind (means related to our spirit) ... and yeah the light is getting greater with the time and here we are ... religion is bulleshit ... God is everything ... Christ is Respect in every aspect (even the right to laugh, have fun or whatever ... since we don't hurt on purpose or by egoisme) it is that simple to me.

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