Is Faith Dangerous? A Question for Believers...

by AllTimeJeff 85 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Narkissos

  Is Christ dangerous? Was Paul or Peter dangerous people as possesers of faith?

  I think so, definitely. Perhaps less as possessors of "faith" than as persons claiming (or represented as claiming) truth.

  But remember my "remedy/poison" suggestion: their "truth" was potentially harmful inasmuch as it was potentially helpful.

  The core of Christianity as represented by the Gospels' Jesus or by Paul has power for both. Don't you think the calls to "die to yourself," to "forsake everything and everyone for the good news," are potentially destructive, for anyone who takes them seriously (which is admittedly rare)? In the exact measure they are potentially dangerous they are, also, potentially liberating.

  Kierkegaard once remarked (from his own experience) that when you take Christianity seriously at too young an age it can break you down beyond repair. This should be pondered more by Christian pastors and teachers imo.

  and a dreadful inquisitor with correct beliefs.

  A question for Narkisos , name one that was both dreadful and was correct in what they were doing?

  As Peter said of Paul's teachings, anyone can twist things to their own destruction.

  Notice how you shifted from my expression, "correct beliefs," to "correct in what they were doing". I am not going there.

  There are not too many beliefs universally recognised as correct. If mathematics count, I'm sure there are a number of dreadful math profs around. Those are the nightmare of their students even though (and at least partly because) they are continually, systematically, desperately right.

  Now if we lower the standard to what is recognised as truth in a specific place and time, examples multiply. As you are a Christian, think of any historical creed you consider correct and ask yourself how many people have been persecuted, tortured and killed for believing otherwise. Secularists can ask the same question about the persecution of believers as it occurred during or after the French or Russian revolutions for instance.

  Inquisitors are dreadful not because their beliefs may be wrong, but because they are certain to be right. Truth, whether absolute or perceived, is essentially totalitarian.
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  proplog2

  I do not believe in evolution, nor do I think that the current understanding of how life got here should be represented as fact.

  Well, that is a page out of your story that I missed.

  Gilead DOES wreck your thinking. You really need to work on other things before you tackle subjects like Is Faith Dangerous.
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  Apostate Kate

  Is Christ dangerous? Was Paul or Peter dangerous people as possesers of faith?

  I think so, definitely. Perhaps less as possessors of "faith" than as persons claiming (or represented as claiming) truth.

  Paul did not claim or represent truth however Jesus did. If that was dangerous then one would have to conclude Jesus was dangerous because truth does not exist.

  If truth does not exists then you do not exist, in fact none of us do. No truth, no reality, no goodness no evil, no life no death, nothing matters if there is nothing that is truth.

  No truth no faith. Some people put faith in dangerous people or dangerous belief systems. If you can find one thing to accuse Jesus of please let me know.
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  LittleToe

  Proplog:

  There is a big difference between imagining you are talking to a human (there are now over 6 Billion of them) and talking to a deity.

  That would be the second emphatic assertion you've sent my way. Again I would ask you to prove it. You've neither presented your assumptions nor evidence.

  Jeff:

  I do not believe in evolution , nor do I think that the current understanding of how life got here should be represented as fact.

  Why? It's as near a theory to explain the evidence we have available as you're likely to get.

  Is it more or less dangerous than religious faith, in your estimation?
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  Perry

  Inquisitors are dreadful not because their beliefs may be wrong, but because they are certain to be right. Truth, whether absolute or perceived, is essentially totalitarian.

  So, if we are certain that a lifestyle of loving your neighbor is one of the ultimate universal "truths" to live by and that helping the poor is another, and that allowing people free will with minimal restraints with respect to the wishes of the majority is still another, that will result in totalitarianism?

  Under your reasoning, you must side with every convicted criminal who calls his judge or jury (or inqusitor) in court a tyrant(s).

  I think I'm beginning to believe that man originally wasn't led by his mind (beliefs) at all. Rather it was his spirit that was the governing principle of his intellect with the body in third place. In the new birth, Christians are challenged to live by the new Spirit within them even while their souls (minds, emotions) are still being tamed, disciplined, and brought under the leadership of the Spirit within (progressively saved). When God speaks to people, he doesn't speak to their intellects, he speaks to their spirits. That is why for a Christian a "quiet and mild spirit is of great value in the eyes of the lord". Of course without the re-birth there is only a dead spirit within man with Sin as the governing principle of his intellect.

  Most of the time we (Christians) are too busy talking, making our own plans, being impatient, and not requesting God's thoughts for him to speak much less for us to listen. When he does speak to us and we listen, I can assure you that the best possible outcome will follow.

  Truth is not the problem; it is the unregenerated soul (psyche, mind & emotions, Christian or otherwise) that is the problem IMHO.
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  Narkissos

  AKate,

  Of course Paul as every other NT writer claimed to teach the truth, even though he didn't claim to be the truth as the Johannine Jesus did. Do a quick search for "truth" in the Pauline epistles.

  On the rest I have nothing to add to what I have already written, which can be read in context.

  Perry,

  So, if we are certain that a lifestyle of loving your neighbor is one of the ultimate universal "truths" to live by and that helping the poor is another, and that allowing people free will with minimal restraints with respect to the wishes of the majority is still another, that will result in totalitarianism?

  I'm glad you brought this up. "Democracy" and "human rights" have indeed replaced "the Gospel" as an official motive for war. To each period its "truth" and its collateral damage.
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  Perry

  I'm glad you brought this up. "Democracy" and "human rights" have indeed replaced "the Gospel" as an official motive for war.

  Ah, the good ole days when when waring to save you and your neighbor's skin against murderous regimes was in vogue. You are for that aren't you?
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  Apostate Kate

  Of course Paul as every other NT writer claimed to teach the truth, even though he didn't claim to be the truth as the Johannine Jesus did. Do a quick search for "truth" in the Pauline epistles.

  Paul said He was not lieing but telling the truth; Acts 26:25 But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness.

  It is readers choice to believe he was lieing or not.

  Romans 9:1 I tell the truth in Christ. I am not lying, my conscience testifying with me in the Holy Spirit,
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  avidbiblereader

  Well put Apostate Kate and Perry I agree with you both in your comments, I wanted to cut and paste your responses but I am having some difficulties. Thanks for excellent thoughts

  abr
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  RAF

  Deputy Dog short answers but ...

  what he says rejoin what Perry said

  So, if we are certain that a lifestyle of loving your neighbor is one of the ultimate universal "truths" to live by and that helping the poor is another, and that allowing people free will with minimal restraints with respect to the wishes of the majority is still another, that will result in totalitarianism?

  but What Narkissos wanted to say (I think) is that with the same motive you can go to war (it happens)

  but then it is forgetting why people really get into war (and that's what people don't really know about before they get into war - desinformation helps a lot in being wrong = the false truth)

  Eddited to add : that when Deputy Dog got all the points (Page 3)

  1) To answer the question, faith is only dangerous to nonbelievers!
  2) So what is your "faith" in?

  1 = you are not a reel believer if you do not believe in what is really important
  2 = so if your faith is based on what is not important (you might get dangerous)