Is Faith Dangerous? A Question for Believers...

by AllTimeJeff 85 Replies latest watchtower bible

Apostate Kate

Please allow me to point out though that sincere faith in Jesus as the son of god runs throughout the JW's. Correct?
incorrect
There are cults who twist the Bible, individuals who twist it, and those who judge it without really doing the in depth study they claim to have. JWs are a cult, they not only do not put faith in Jesus but they don't believe who he said he was.
He claimed to be the great I Am. John 8:58-59 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Joh 8:58
Verse 58. Verily, verily. This is an expression used only in John. It is
a strong affirmation denoting particularly the great importance of
what was about to be affirmed. Cmt. on Joh 3:5.
Before Abraham was. Before Abraham lived.
I am. The expression I am, though in the present tense, is clearly
designed to refer to a past time. Thus, in Ps 90:2, "From everlasting
to everlasting thou art God." Applied to God, it denotes continued
existence without respect to time, so far as he is concerned. We
divide time into the past, the present, and the future. The
expression, applied to God, denotes that he does not measure his
existence in this manner, but that the word by which we express the
present denotes his continued and unchanging existence. Hence he
assumes it as his name, "I AM," and "I AM THAT I AM," Ex 3:14.
Comp. Isa 44:6; 47:8. There is a remarkable similarity between the
expression employed by Jesus in this place and that used in
Exodus to denote the name of God. The manner in which Jesus
used it would strikingly suggest the application of the same
language to God. The question here was about his pre-existence.
The objection of the Jews was that he was not fifty years old, and
could not, therefore, have seen Abraham. Jesus replied to that that
he existed before Abraham. As in his human nature he was not yet
fifty years old, and could not, as a man, have existed before
Abraham, this declaration must be referred to another nature; and
the passage proves that, while he was a man, he was also endowed
with another nature existing before Abraham, and to which he
applied the term (familiar to the Jews as expressive of the existence
of God) I AM; and this declaration corresponds to the affirmation of
John (Joh 1:1), that he was in the beginning with God, and was
God. This affirmation of Jesus is one of the proofs on which John
relies to prove that he was the Messiah (Joh 20:31), to establish
which was the design of writing this book.
{b} "I am" Ex 3:14; Isa 43:13; Joh 1:1-2; Col 1:17; Re 1:8
LittleToe

Jeff:You're firing off in every direction but the right one. You answer Kate as follows:
Kate: The fact is as far as authentic Christian faith, it is not about the Christian but all about Jesus.
You: Thanks for sharing this. I would respectfully disagree for this reason...
Whether you disagree or not, she's correct. That is exactly what Christian faith is about. It's not about being a member of a religion or denomination. It's simply about Christ. Any faith that doesn't have Christ completely at the heart of it is not considered by any other Christian.
Your standards as to what a Christian is, or isn't, is neither here nor their. The standard must come from within the group, not be externally applied! On this subject all Christians agree.
Kate: It is a one on one personal relationship that can be measured in tangible ways. There was just a study done that proves that those who live lives of giving and charity live longer healthier happier lives than any other group!
You: Again, this isn't the exclusive property of Christians.
Actually the first part of the statement is the exclusive property of Christians. I'll grant you, as would Kate, that the second is more general.
Kate: Some find mystery, contradiction and a lack of science in the Bible, I don't.
You: I will let that statement alone. I would be remiss to say that in my view, that statement is wrong.
So why did you proceed to say it then? By your own standards you admit that you are best served by silence on the matter, but then forge ahead. Say what you mean and mean what you say...
LittleToe

You didn't answer my question first. Please allow me to ask you, are you a believer in a religion and thus, have faith in god?
No, not at all.
Its entirely the other way about. I have met God, have faith in what I have seen [subjectively, and thus am unable to prove], and consequently enjoy a religious life through choice. I don't "believe" in religion at all. Every one of your questions is constructed the wrong way around, from a believer's perspective...
In fact I'd go so far as to say that if you take all of your questions and reverse them 180* you might come to understand more about believers than all of our words could supply. Life isn't about big rocks, its about every small stone. When you can drown in a couple of inches of water an ocean makes little greater difference.
AllTimeJeff

Hello BlackSwan....
It would be impossible to tackle all of your replies to my statements, some of which I feel you may not have understood in their context. One thing that came through loud and clear to me though, is it appears that because so many people get through the day because of faith, you argue that we should .... what.... leave it alone? Just let people believe what they will? If you could clarify that in a sentence or two, that would be great.
Why should you have to justify your faith or lack thereof to anyone? If you have no need for faith or God, then fine. Don't believe. Who cares?
Well, this is a forum about religion, god and faith. I care. Many others do. I asked a question. If it offended you and you don't care, why did you reply?
The fact that a higher power could exist is not an excuse to put faith in it just because it would be nice.
Tell that to a man whose 7 year old daughter dies painfully of cancer and his wife dies of cancer 3 years before. To you it is no big deal. Perhaps you have been through just as much and have come out with no faith. To another faith is what sustains them. Maybe you missed that part. Perhaps the Flying Spaghetti Monster WON'T come DOWN and heal all and bring peace and blah blah blah. But to people, throughout the centuries who have suffered, faith is what sustained them. Is that wrong?
Please sir, allow me to point out that while such tragedies are both sad and common, and I have personally been through a few of them myself, it seems to muddy the waters a bit as to the question. My question wasn't "Do humans have a need to believe in something to get them through the day?" because the answer is an overwhelming YES! Faith in oneself, or the idea that tomorrow could be better then today is not the kind of faith I am referring to. It is faith in the ideas of the supernatural that come from ancient scrolls. I know what you were implying with referring to a fictional hero as the "Flying Spaghetti Monster", but is he less fictional? If it makes someone feel better to believe in fiction to get him through the day, it still doesn't make it non fiction. For that matter, let me add to your own example: What if your faith/religion/belief mandated that for the rest of the grieving family to feel better, they would have to burn alive the widow of the husband who recently passed away? This is an example of Sutee that is taught in the Hindu religion. Not all Hindu's believe or do this, but some do. Would I be allowed to point out the facts? Would it even be possible, since faith in this unproveable, untestable idea would likely win the day. History teaches us that when you put aside truth for a fantasy, no matter how noble the motive, does a long term dis service to mankind, not the opposite. I would suggest that how to deal with illness and death is something that most of mankind will be dealing with for a long time.. Unfortunatly.
On the flip side why should a person who has faith feel the need to justify their faith to anyone other then themself? In your reality, there is no room for God. Ok. As I said, to a person who is suffering, their reality demands faith to survive. Perhaps it itself is a great product of the mind to keep us alive during times of distress. Who are you to demand that they prove anything to you? If they evangelize that's one thing, but not every person of faith feels the need to do that. If a person tries to evangelize you, you have every right to ask your questions and get answers and if the answers are not rational, you have every right to tell them to let you be. Otherwise........what am I missing?
They don't have to. I was inviting those that wished to answer the question I asked to feel free to do so. I didn't demand anything because I asked, and again, feel free to excuse yourself from this discussion if that is how you feel. If someone doesn't want to offer evidence for what they believe, that is their right. Great! I hope they can go to bed at night safe in the knowledge that somewhere in the world, AllTimeJeff didn't get the answer he demanded of them.... C'mon, re read my posts please. Are you sure you got that right? I asked a thought provoking question, and concluded that first post by saying
I look forward to a lively debate on this. I think about it often. Please note that it is not my intention to attack believers, but rather, to ask believers to defend their beliefs. I hope that it will not be taken personally.
Sorry if you took it personally. Some like to defend what they believe, others don't. I was ready to assume that if they joined in the discussion, they were the kind who wanted to defend their beliefs. Please, if you don't mind, don't defend those that aren't attacked. I didn't attack those who lost daughters and wives to cancer. You are defending pure fiction, because I never said that! Defend an idea or answer the question. You could have framed that example better without implying that it is my goal to take away a persons hope. Sheesh......
RAF

ok to be more precise faith (the religious one - and actually even not religious one) is not totally related to the fact that we believe in God ... it's a matter of confidenceyou believe that some things can really lead to something better (religiously as christian / Christ's doctrine about how to treat each other and ourselves) ... I don't really feel the need to go further than that ...
As for the reward I don't really care ... I am what I am, I have the feeling that I have and I'm not gonna be hypocrite about it (since I don't feel that I'm a monster, I feel ok with myself and think that God who knows me, know that I'm doing my best relatively to what I am and my spiritual state, even in not being perfect).
Anyway I'm not searching for perfection about myself I more looking for understanding ... you can yell on me /treat me like shit wathever like, if I understand your why everything will still be ok ... you can be nice to me but if I feel that you are hypocrite (well ... it's a standbye).
Honesty

I would have to agree that faith is dangerous in many situations such as Waco - David Koresh, Jonestown - Jim Jones, etc.
All I know is that when I finally realised that I had been worshipping the Watchtower Society's "Faithful Slave" as represented by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses (Jan. 15, 1994 Watchtower page 17 paragraph 5) and went to Jesus in prayer (which would have got me DF'd by Jehovah's organization if they found out) and asked Him to forgive me for my sins something BIG immediately happened....
Narkissos

ATJ,
I'm afraid you missed, or avoided, my point, and as a result keep jumping from the issue of "benefit/harm" to that of "truth/error" as if they were identical. Perhaps you are too much of a socratic cognitive optimist to see that those issues, as I submitted, may be largely if not completely independent. Any belief, right or wrong, can be used in a helpful or harmful way. That doesn't mean the truth of beliefs cannot be discussed. But to me this is another topic entirely.
Like any other remedy-poison, the difference lies in posology. What kind, how much, how often, how long, to whom, in which case? Unfortunately religion-sellers tend to sell their stuff as a panacea, both harmless and efficient to all, the more you take the better. Because most of them are quacks or, even worse, salesmen, who don't know the real potential for good and bad in their own "product". True soul doctors are few and far between, but you can find them in any religious or cultural context (even secular atheists). Those will first listen to you, watch you and figure out what you need, and then see if they have something at hand which can help you. If they have not and think someone else has, they will tell you.
AllTimeJeff

Kate, Little Toe, and RAF thanks for your replies. I will adress Kates remarks first.
You disagree with the fact that JW's are Christian. Fair enough, I will concede that point, as it isn't my main arguement anyway. Thousands of years have been spent in the Christian community where one denomination or sect argues with another over which one is in fact Christian. But that highlights my point on faith. Why are you right? JW's take those same scriptures, as do Catholics, Protestants, LDS, etc, they will look at the same scripture and DISAGREE! Its really amazing to see. I am nuetral as to what JW's claim to be, because they are a cult. It is an accident of history that the Catholics or Protestants today are viewed as mainstream, only because they have been around longer. The fact that you used the bible though Kate doens't answer my question as to why I should trust the bible, thus putting faith in it as the authority of truth and the nature of god.....
Little Toe, it looks like we will have a debate!
Kate: The fact is as far as authentic Christian faith, it is not about the Christian but all about Jesus.
You: Thanks for sharing this. I would respectfully disagree for this reason...
Whether you disagree or not, she's correct. That is exactly what Christian faith is about. It's not about being a member of a religion or denomination. It's simply about Christ. Any faith that doesn't have Christ completely at the heart of it is not considered by any other Christian.
Respectfully, the reason I gave (which you did not include in your reply) is that Jesus said at John 13:35 ""By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." I thought the point was self evident, but you disagree. Ok, why? As you can see above, your reason is that "Any faith that doesn't have Christ completely at the heart of it is not considered by any other Christian." That in no way answered my point or contradicted it. If it isn't about the Christian as Kate said, why did Jesus say that a disciple, i.e. a Christian, would be identified by this criteria? Jesus himself set the criteria, why do you put it upon yourself to disagree with what Jesus said at John 13:35 Little Toe? Isn't Jesus saying here that it IS about the Christian? Please answer this.... If your answer is that you have the right to your thoughts on the matter, please know that I am happy that you do. It seems to me that such a belief about what it means to be a Christian contradicts John 13:35.
Kate: Some find mystery, contradiction and a lack of science in the Bible, I don't.
You: I will let that statement alone. I would be remiss to say that in my view, that statement is wrong.
So why did you proceed to say it then? By your own standards you admit that you are best served by silence on the matter, but then forge ahead. Say what you mean and mean what you say...
No, I am happy to respond, it is just that these threads quickly change discussion if they aren't kept on subject, and my subject was on the nature of faith, not the contradictions and lack of science that appear in the bible. Thus I will say in general that there is little to no evidence of the creative days in Genesis, and the account of a world wide flood is totally without scientific merit. There are doctrinal views on scripture that many consider a mystery, such as our little example above, and contradictions in the bible??? With all respect, I will use my other thread today if you like to argue about biblical contradictions, but surely you know they exist and that much controversy and commentary has surrounded them for centuries. And at the end of the day, what must a believer do when scriptures contradict? They must have FAITH. Which is the whole point of this thread. Where answers are lacking, faith is there as the bridge. Is that good enough for some? Great! I am just asking if there is anything more to faith then that. I am getting many answers, which I appreciate.
I have met God, have faith in what I have seen [subjectively, and thus am unable to prove], and consequently enjoy a religious life through choice. I don't "believe" in religion at all. Every one of your questions is constructed the wrong way around, from a believer's perspective...
Well, there isn't a lot that we can talk about their. Why you and not most others would be my first question, but be that as it may, no one can argue with you. You said you had a discussion with someone you believe to be god. Out of necessity, that can only be good enough for you, I can't take your word for it alone. As far as how my questions are constructed, why are they wrong from a believers point of view? Is it because it demands evidence first before belief?
In fact I'd go so far as to say that if you take all of your questions and reverse them 180* you might come to understand more about believers than all of our words could supply. Life isn't about big rocks, its about every small stone. When you can drown in a couple of inches of water an ocean makes little greater difference.
Feel free to 180 my questions then, and I will be happy to answer. To quote Edie Brickell as to the dangers of water:
I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know if you know what I mean
Do do ya

Chuck me in the shallow water
Before I get too deep
Chuck me in the shallow water
Before I get too deep
EDITED FOR RAF AND NARKISSOS
RAF, I apologize if I didn't understand your point. I do respect your right to belief, just asking for reasons for your faith, if you care to share. If not, that is fine, and I had no intent to ridicule your right to faith.
NARKISSOS, I am most defenitly not a follower of Socrates at all, I haven't read 8 paragraphs attributed to him. I think that as you put it, if I am guilty of jumping from the issue of "benefit/harm" to that of "truth/error", then it might have something to do with the fact that those ideas are related, if not the same thing.
Why may I ask, is it so wrong to ask believers for the reasons as to why they believe. Why is it bad if it is pointed out that no one has answered why I should believe or given persuasive evidence and fact?
BlackSwan of Memphis

Wow, my apologies Jeff, we're not on the same page and you really did not understand what I was getting at and obviously missed the light humor to show that. I was throwing out a different perspective to consider and basically trying to say, that faith is so intensely personal. And right now some people need it, while you do not and that is fine. That is your path. That is your way through life.
Mine is through the earth and the universe and what I can feel, touch and experience. And it works for me. Yet an ancient scroll is what works for others. For you....ancient scrolls don't work, and in fact cause harm. That is your perspective, opinion.
I was throwing out hypothetical questions and thoughts, not to be so much literally answered as considered.
Sorry if you took it personally.
I don't think I'm seeing how my post reflected that, as I said I was throwing out a different perspective, or thought on how to view this.
Sorry if you took it personally. Some like to defend what they believe, others don't. I was ready to assume that if they joined in the discussion, they were the kind who wanted to defend their beliefs. Please, if you don't mind, don't defend those that aren't attacked. I didn't attack those who lost daughters and wives to cancer. You are defending pure fiction, because I never said that! Defend an idea or answer the question. You could have framed that example better without implying that it is my goal to take away a persons hope. Sheesh......
I didn't say you did. I was presenting an alternative way of seeing faith and why we at times feel the need to question it. My apologies for coming across that way.
I didn't take it personally, but I believe the way I worded things offended you, which was seriously not my intent. Rather, in many ways I saw much of my own thoughts expressed in yours and was simply offering the way I had ended up reasoning on the matter in the end, and should have expressed it better. I had thought that at the end you would have noticed that.
Which by the way for reference, the matter to which I am referring is not fiction.
Here in MI a man just lost his daughter to cancer, and a few years ago his wife to cancer. The two cancers were unrelated apparently, but what is sustaining him everyday is faith in a religion I do not have faith in. But after ranting over religion and God in the last few months, and seeing the crimes committed in the name of the various gods, had realized that while they have caused so much fucking evil and damage to this world, it has at times been the very source of life for others. There may not be good reasons to believe that Jesus performed those miracles, and for many faith is based on nothing more then experience, like this man.
It's perspective.
proplog2

Little Toe:
You have not in reality actually met God. You imagine you have met God. And that's why such belief is useless to me or anyone else unless they too are trying to justify their delusions and fantasies.
You've simply got a "bug" in your brain.

Is Faith Dangerous? A Question for Believers...

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