Is Faith Dangerous? A Question for Believers... (page 7)

tall penguin

I've been writing about this very subject on my blog over the past couple of months and have had some interesting discussions with various people. What I notice is that we become so identified with our beliefs (whatever they are) that our ego takes over and we act from a very primal fear and survival-oriented place.

The questions I have are:

Why are we so attached to our beliefs and thoughts? Have we defined ourself by them? Is that who we really are? Can we be separated from our thoughts and beliefs? Who would we be without them?

I don't have any answers. I just like asking questions.

tall penguin

JamesThomas

That is why for a Christian a "quiet and mild spirit is of great value in the eyes of the lord". Of course without the re-birth there is only a dead spirit within man with Sin as the governing principle of his intellect.

Here, is the danger. Sugar coated division of people into the chosen and the evil. The battle line is drawn, the enemy identified. Now all that is needed is a little schizophrenia, a tiny voice telling you to bomb the clinic so that you can gain even greater value in the eyes of your lord.

On the other hand: there is that which unites us one and all. That with no beginning and no end. To realize it is to know you are nothing of yourself, and have no greater value than anyone or anything else; you are one with all that IS. Of course this is coming from someone with Sin as the governing principle of his intellect.

j

Perry

tall-penguin,

Excellent questions.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the "dividing asunder" (merismos) of soul and spirit...

Man's dead spirit and and his intellect, emotions etc. [psyche] are welded together into something called the human heart.... the center or core of the person. When a person is born again, this amalgamation is split or divided asunder. Only God can do this by his choosing. After that, a battle begains to rage within between the new spirit (zoe) and the soul (psyche) since it (the psyche) is like a spoiled child that misses it's former dominance and must be made compliant to the spirit.

This is also called the circumcision of the heart.... literally dividing the old spirit from the soul (intellect or psyche).

This is what the circumcision pictured. The flesh (dead spirit inherited from Adam) was cut & thrown away fore-shadowing (no pun intended) the time when God would:

EZ: 37 :14 put mySpirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken

Joel 2: 28, 29 "And afterward, I will pour out mySpirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out mySpirit in those days.

Why are we so attached to our beliefs and thoughts?

I think it is because in the natural, that is all we have to keep us from becoming someone else's drone and getting abused. So, we develop our thoughts and beliefs out a sense of self-preservation and they help define who we are. When a person is in the Spirit, it is God who defines your identity not your beliefs or emotions. Fear (and thus enslavement) is at the bottom of the enmeshment between our identity and our beliefs.

Is that who we really are?

It depends on whose point of view you are looking from man's or God's.

Who would we be without them?

Without your beliefs and emotions defining who you are, you become a a "son" because your inheritance doesn't come from your environment but from the infinite Himself. You would be quite literally whoever God says you are. It is the most precious, sweetest thing you can ever experience. Somehow your personality is blossomed rather than squelched into a greater and greater reflection of the Father. He is a complete gentleman during this process; remember, "there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus".

Perry

On the other hand: there is that which unites us one and all [who accept a pardon for their crimes against their neighbors and God]. That with no beginning and no end. To realize it is to know you are nothing of yourself, and have no greater value than anyone or anything else; you are one with all that IS.

With my little addition to your statement, I couldn't have said it better myself.

JamesThomas

[who accept a pardon for their crimes against their neighbors and God].

Perry, I'm not clear on what you are saying here; but it seems you are suggesting that there is something we must do in order to enter God's circle; and if so, I disagree.

Perhaps the difference in our sense of things is I see no possibility of being truly separate from what genuinely has no beginning and no end. Whereas the general Christian ides of a god is much less than infinite, and so there is the possibility that one can be separate from it and so there are hoops to jump through to get back home. The Christian god is just another object or thing somewhere within time and space. What I am attempting to point to, is what all gods, all time and space exist within. I accept no belittling or minimizing of the Divine whatsoever. Which is why I no-longer read the Bible, and why I do not accept any religion or belief system.

In this way it's about clearly seeing what is our actual and real truth and Identity right now, just beneath all which is believed and thought to be. Nothing external is required for such an investigation as it is about what is real and true already. It's about letting go of lesser ideas and beliefs of gods and deities, and seeing what is always, always infinitely vaster and so closer than close.

Is God less, or is God more?

j

Balsam

I don't believe that faith in anything should be set, but flexible and adjustable as we go through life and perhaps have to adjust our belief system.

I read Sam Harris book and felt it was very good. Blind faith can be dangerous and that is why I would never in a concrete way say we have to believe a certain say.

tall penguin

Well Perry, I'm not sure what to say to you. You've answered my questions about beliefs with beliefs of your own, based on your interpretation of God. I'm interested in less belief, not more.

My point, as I'm sure many can see happening on this thread, as that when we have a belief that we become attached to, there is a need to defend it as "the truth". Does truth need to be defended? Perhaps it just is?

tall penguin

Perry

Perry, I'm not clear on what you are saying here; but it seems you are suggesting that there is something we must do in order to enter God's circle; and if so, I disagree.

James, have you ever lied? Have you ever stolen anything.... no matter how small? Have you ever looked at a married woman with lust, or looked lustfully at any woman while married?

Be truthful. Then by your own admission you are a liar, a thief and an adulterer. And, that's just three of the ten commandments. You are a criminal before the Creator.

When you are on the receiving end of a big lie, a theft or an adultery have you ever wished that person pain, discomfort or worse to punish them? Then either you imitate God and therefore excuse his requirement for you to accept his pardon (or receive his punishment for that matter); or you envision a god whereby those kinds of things are condoned which he therefore forfeits his office as god by any reasonable standard; and worse, you're also a hypocrit because you hold others to a standard that your god doesn't. How do you justify your own existence with a view like that?

Your view is simply not logical nor coherent.

BTW, please don't take the denunciations as an indication of my own righteousness, I'm guilty of all of those thing and much worse.

Perry

I'm not sure what to say to you. You've answered my questions about beliefs with beliefs of your own, based on your interpretation of God.

tall penguin,

My fault. I'm sorry for my not explaining that all that I wrote, even though it from the bible, was (is) also my experience. So, my answers to your questions was my testimony as much as it was the word of God.

My apology.

A Paduan

I dispute the opening comment

Doubtless, we all had to have some faith in an unseen god, believing that he has revealed himself through the bible....

To be a jehovahs witness one suspects the existence of an unseen god, but the faith one has is in themselves, and rather and opposite, an 'informed' jw does NOT have faith in a deity, but requires work for appeasement.

Is Faith Dangerous? A Question for Believers...

Share this