YOU WONT BELIEVE THIS!! ONE OF THE JWs THAT EGGED OUR HOUSE KNOCKED

by Lady Liberty 56 Replies latest jw friends

  • Lady Liberty
    Lady Liberty

    LL

    Is that true there were millions of christians in the tombs? If so where is the reference for that?

    Yes, they are called the catacombs. You can google it. I will try and post some info. As I recall, there are millions of Christians buried under Rome, as well as other places. The bodies are stacked on top of one another, and the tunnells go on for miles. You can visit there even today. Infact, my ex-brother-inlaw has. He said it was quite creepy. I will see what I can find for you.

    Sincerely,

    Lady Liberty

  • dare2be
    dare2be

    I understand.

    I don't look for him to though. He is the proud type! But maybe I will be wrong..lets hope so!

    I have a JW family living very close by. They would be very nice people - but because of being jw's they have this self righteous self important air especially now that I have stopped attending. Like your neighbours hope they wake up soon.

    d2b

  • zensim
    zensim

    Lady Liberty that is a fantastic story. Boy, I wish your husband could have talked to me when I had all my doubts and didn't know what was up and what was down. I still don't know how to refute all that 607 stuff, but then again, I never understood it in the first place.

  • Lady Liberty
    Lady Liberty

    Dear searching4truth,

    Here is some info. on the Christian catacombs: http://www.catacombe.roma.it/welcome.html

    Sincerely,

    L.L.

    INTRODUCTION


    The catacombs are the ancient underground cemeteries, used by the Christian and the Jewish communities, above all at Rome. The Christian catacombs, which are the most numerous, began in the second century and the excavating continued until the first half of the fifth.

    In the beginning they were only burial places. Here the Christians gathered to celebrate their funeral rites, the anniversaries of the martyrs and of the dead.

    During the persecutions, in exceptional cases, the catacombs were used as places of momentary refuge for the celebration of the Eucharist. They were not used as secret hiding places of the early Christians. This is only a fiction taken from novels or movies.

    After the persecutions, especially in the time of pope Saint Damasus (366 - 384) they became real shrines of the martyrs, centres of devotion and of pilgrimage for Christians from every part of the empire.

    In those days in Rome too there existed cemeteries in the open, but the Christians, for several reasons, preferred underground cemeteries. First of all, the Christians rejected the pagan custom of cremation; they preferred burial, just as Christ was buried, because they felt they had to respect the bodies that one day would rise from the dead.

    This genuine belief of the Christians created a problem of space, which exerted a great influence upon the development of the catacombs. The areas owned by the Christians above ground were very limited in extent. Had they used only open-air cemeteries, since they as a rule did not reuse the tombs, the space available for burial would have quickly been exhausted. The catacombs came as the solution of the problem; and it proved to be economical, safe and practical. In fact it was cheaper to dig underground corridors and galleries than to buy large pieces of land in the open. As the early Christians were predominantly poor, this way of burying the dead was decisive.

    But there were other reasons too for choosing the underground digging. The Christians felt a lively community sense: they wished to be together even in the "sleep of death". Furthermore such out-of-the-way areas, especially during the persecutions, were very apt for reserved community meetings and for the free displaying of the Christian symbols.

    In compliance with the Roman law, which forbade the burial of the dead within the city walls, all catacombs are located outside the city, along the great consular roads, generally in the immediate suburban area of that age.

    HISTORY OF THE CATACOMBS


    Galleria - Area A© Pontificia Commissione di Archeologia Sacra

    In the first century Rome's Christians did not have their own cemeteries.If they owned land, they buried their relatives there, otherwise they resorted to common cemeteries, where pagans too were buried. That is how Saint Peter came to be buried in the great public "necropolis" ("city of the dead") on Vatican Hill, available to everybody. Likewise Saint Paul was buried in a necropolis along the Via Ostiense.

    In the first half of the second century, as a result of various grants and donations, the Christians started burying their dead underground. That is how the catacombs were founded. Many of them began and developed around family tombs, whose owners, newly converted Christians, did not reserve them to the members of the family, but opened them to their brethren in the faith.

    With the passage of time, these burial areas grew larger by gifts or by the purchase of new properties, sometimes on the initiative of the Church itself. Typical is the case of Saint Callixtus: the Church took up directly the organization and administration of the cemetery, assuming a community character.

    With the edict of Milan, promulgated by the emperors Constantine and Licinius in February 313, the Christians were no longer persecuted. They were free to profess their faith, to have places of worship and to build churches both inside and outside the city, and to buy plots of land, without fear of confiscation. Nevertheless, the catacombs continued to function as regular cemeteries until the beginning of the fifth century, when the Church retumed to bury exclusively above ground or in the basilicas dedicated to important martyrs.

    When the barbarians (Goths and Longobards) invaded Italy and came down to Rome,they systematically destroyed a lot of monuments and sacked many places, including the catacombs. Powerless in the face of such repeated pillages, towards the end of the eighth century and the beginning of the ninth, the Popes ordered to remove the relics of the martyrs and of the saints to the city churches, for security reasons.
    When the transfer of the relics was completed, the catacombs were no longer visited; on the contrary, they were totally abandoned, with the exception of Saint Sebastian, Saint Lawrence and of Saint Pancratius. In the course of time, landslides and vegetation obstructed and hid the entrances to the other catacombs, so that the very traces of their existence were lost. During the late Middle Ages they didn't even know where they were.

    The exploration and scientific study of the catacombs started, centuries later, with Antonio Bosio (1575 - 1629), nicknamed the "Columbus of subterranean Rome". In the last century the systematic exploration of the catacombs, and in particular of those of Saint Callixtus, was carried out by Giovanni Battista de Rossi (1822 - 1894), who is considered the father and founder of Christian Archaeology.

    OUTLINE OF THE CATACOMBS.


    The catacombs are made up of underground tunnels in the form of a labyrinth. They can reach the total number of many miles In the tufaceous walls of this intricate system of galleries were cut out rows of rectangular niches, called "loculi", of various dimensions, which could contain only one body, but not infrequently the remains of more than one person. The burials of the early Christians were extremely poor and simple. The corpses, in imitation of Christ, were wrapped in a sheet or shroud and placed in the loculi without any kind of coffin.The loculi were closed with a slab of marble or, in most cases, by tiles fixed by mortar. On the tombstone the name of the deceased was sometimes engraved, along with a Christian symbol or a wish that the person might find peace in heaven. Oil lamps and small vases containing perfumes would often be placed beside the tombs.

    The structure of the tombs, arranged in rows superimposed one upon another at different levels, gave one the idea of a vast dormitory, called cemetery, a term coming from Greek and meaning "resting place". In this way the Christians wanted to affirm their faith in the resurrection of the bodies.

    There were, besides the loculi, other types of tombs down in the catacombs: the arcosolium, the sarcophagus, the forma, the cubiculum and the crypt.

    The arcosolium, a tomb typical of the third and of the fourth century, is a much larger niche with an arch above it. The marble-tomb covering was placed horizontally. They usually served as the burial chamber for entire families.

    The sarcophagus is a stone- or marble-coffin, usually adorned with sculptured reliefs or inscriptions.

    The forma is a tomb dug into the floor of a crypt, of a cubiculum or of a gallery. They were very numerous near the martyrs' tombs.

    The cubicula (meaning "bedrooms") were small rooms, truly family tombs, with a capacity of several loculi. The use of a family tomb was not a privilege reserved to the rich. The cubicles and the arcosoliums were frequently decorated with frescoes portraying biblical scenes and reproducing the themes of Baptism, Eucharist and Resurrection symbolized by the cycle of Jona.

    The Crypt is a bigger room. Under Pope Damasus, many of the martyrs' tombs were converted into crypts, that is into small underground churches embellished with paintings, mosaics or other decorations.

    The catacombs were the exclusive work of a specialized guild of workers called "fossores" ("gravediggers").They dug gallery after gallery by the faint light of their lamps and used baskets or bags to carry the earth away, also through the lucemaria ("sky-lights") opened in the vault of a crypt or of a cubicle or along the galleries. The lucemaria were ample shafts which reached the surface. When the work of excavation was finished, they remained opened as a vent for air and light, as a means of ventilation and lighting.

    The ancient Christians did not use the term "catacomb". This is a word of Greek origin, meaning "near the hollow". The Romans applied it to a locality on the Appian Way, where there were caves for the removal of tuff blocks. Nearby were dug the catacombs of Saint Sebastian. In the ninth century the term was extended to all cemeteries, with the specific sense of underground cemetery.

    THE SYMBOLS


    The early Christians lived in a mainly pagan and hostile society. During Nero's persecution (64 A.D.) their religion was considered "a strange and illegal superstition". The Christians were mistrusted and kept aloof, they were suspected and accused of the worst crimes. They were persecuted, imprisoned, sentenced to exile or condemned to death. Unable to profess their faith openly, the Christians made use of symbols, which they depicted on the walls of the catacombs and, more often, carved them on the marble-slabs which sealed the tombs.

    Like the ancient, the Christians were very fond of symbolism. The symbols were a visible reminder of their faith. The term "symbol " refers to a concrete sign or figure, which, according to the author's intention, recalls an idea or a spiritual reality. The main symbols are: the Good Shepherd, the "Orante", the monogram of Christ and the fish.

    The Good Shepherd with a lamb around his shoulders represents Christ and the soul which He has saved. This symbol is often found in the frescoes, in the reliefs of the sarcophagi, in the statues and is often engraved on the tombs.

    The "orante": this praying figure with open arms symbolizes the soul which lives in divine peace.

    The monogram of Christ is formed by interlacing two letters of the Greek alphabet: X (chi) and P (ro), which are the first two letters of the Greek word "Christòs" or Christ. When this monogram was placed on a tombstone, it meant a Christian was buried there.

    The fish. In Greek one says IXTHYS (ichtùs). Placed vertically, the letters of this word form an acrostic: Iesùs Christòs Theòu Uiòs Sotèr = Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour. Acrostic is Greek word which means the first letter of every line or paragraph. The fish is a widespread symbol of Christ, a motto and a compendium of the Christian faith.

    Some other symbols are the dove, the Alpha and the Omega, the anchor,the phoenix, etc.

    The dove holding an olive branch symbolizes the soul that reached divine peace.

    The Alpha and the Omega are the first and the last letters of the Greek alphabet They signify that Christ is the beginning and the end of all things.

    The anchor is the symbol of salvation and of the soul which has peacefully reached the port of eternity.

    The phoenix, the mythical Arabian bird, which, according to the beliefs of the ancient, after a thousand years arises from its ashes, is the symbol of the resurrection of the bodies.

    The martyrs' tombs, the cubicles and also the arcosoliums could be at times decorated with pictures painted with the method of the fresco. The frescoes represent biblical scenes of the Old and the New Testament, some of them with a precise symbolic meaning.

    The symbols and the frescoes form a miniature Gospel, a summary of the Christian faith.

    THE IMPORTANCE OF THE CATACOMBS


    There are more than sixty catacombs in Rome, with hundreds of miles of galleries and tens of thousands of tombs. Catacombs are found also at Chiusi, Bolsena, Naples, in eastem Sicily and in North Africa too.

    The system of underground digging was not the invention of the Christians, nor was it caused by the persecutions. The catacombs were simply Christian collective burial grounds, dug out in the depths of the earth.

    The Christians adopted a preexisting technique of excavation and developed it on an immense scale into a vast and multi-levelled network of galleries. This was the solution to the problems of burial of a large community with an ever increasing number of members. The speedy and enormous development of some catacombs was also due to the cult of the martyrs buried there. Many Christians insisted on having a tomb as close as possible to the venerated graves of the martyrs, in order to secure their intercession.

    The catacombs are visited to-day by thousands of pilgrims from all over the world, because of their importance. The catacombs with their precious patrimony of paintings, inscriptions, sculptures, etc., are considered the authentic archives of the primitive Church, which document her usages and customs, her rites and beliefs and the Christian doctrine, as it was understood, taught and practised in that time.

    The early Christians did not bury their faith nor their lives in the underground, but lived common people lives in their families, in society, in all activities, jobs and professions. They testified their faith everywhere, but it was in the catacombs that those heroic Christians found the strength and support to face the trials and persecutions, as they prayed to God through the martyrs' intercession.

    The Christians of the first centuries bore a wonderful witness to Christ; many of them even by the shedding of their blood, so that martyrdom has become a glorious mark of the Church.

    Despite the fact that the catacombs are, after all, only cemeteries, they speak to the mind and heart of the visitors in a silent and understandable language. In the catacombs everything speaks of life more than death. Every gallery they pass through, every symbol or painting they see, every inscription they read, brings the past to life and gives a message of faith and of Christian testimony.

    Therefore the visit to the catacombs cannot be reduced to a mere sightseeing tour neither to a cultural archaeological trip. Following the example of the numberless pilgrims of the past, it should turn out to be an authentic pilgrimage of faith to one of the historical monuments that better expresses the life and martyrdom of the Roman Church of the first centuries.

    WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW ABOUT THE CATACOMBS


    1. AT PRESENT, THERE ARE FIVE CATACOMBS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC.

      1. The catacombs of St. Agnes, 00162 -Via Nomentana, 349 - tel. 06 861 08 40 ( closed on Sunday momings and on Monday afternoons)
      2. The catacombs of Priscilla, 00199 - via Salaria, 430 - tel. & fax 06 86 20 62 72 (closed on Mondays)
      3. The catacombs of Domitilla, 00147 - via delle Sette Chiese, 282/0 - tel. 06 511 03 42 / 06 513 39 56 fax 06 513 54 61 (closed on Tuesdays)
      4. The catacombs of St. Sebastian, 00179 - via Appia Antica, 136 - tel. 06 788 70 35 / fax 06 784 37 45 (closed on Sundays)
      5.The catacombs of St.Callixtus,00179 - Via Appia Antica, 126 - (closed on Wednesdays) tel. 06 513 01 51 / 06 513 01 580 - fax 06 513 01 567

    2. THE CATACOMBS ARE OPEN ALL YEAR ROUND, except on Christmas Day, New Year's Day and at Easter. Each catacomb closes one day a week, and one month in the winter for the necessary restoration and clean up.

    3. VISITING HOURS are the same for all catacombs, except for the catacombs of St. Agnes:

      9:00 - 12:00 * 14:00 - 17.00
      9.00 - 12.00 * 16.00 - 18.00 (only for St. Agnes )

    4. GUIDED TOURS. The visitors follow a guide in the language of their choice, without any further recompense. The tour takes about half an hour.

    5. The actual price of admission is 5 € full price, 3 € half price

    6. INSTRUCTIONS & DISCOUNTS from the Pontifical Commission of Sacred Archaeology:

      1. Evely visitor must show his ticket at the gate.
      2. Classes, who come for an educational tour, if they present a certificate from their School, pay half price. * Free admission is given to teachers and assistants, who accompany classes, 1 every 15 pupils. * Parents and relatives of pupils pay full price.
      3. Free admission is given to 1 driver and to 1 group-leader for each group, however their tickets are not transferable.
      4. Young people under 15 pay half price. Children under 6 come free.
      5. Soldiers, in uniform or with identification card, pay half price.

    To register for archaeological visits, apply to the Pontifical Commission of Sacred Archaeology.
    To book the celebration of Mass, contact beforehand the Catacombs.

    The catacombs of Italy are entrusted to the Pontifical Commission of Sacred Archaeology, which carries out the works of excavation, exploration and restoration and takes charge of preparing studies and aids (books, pamphlets, souvenirs, videos, etc.) for all the catacombs.

    The main office of the Commission is in Rome, 00185, Via Napoleone III, 1

    The President is H.E. Msg. Francesco Marchisano - the Secretary: Prof. Fabrizio Bisconti.

  • Lady Liberty
    Lady Liberty

    I still don't know how to refute all that 607 stuff, but then again, I never understood it in the first place.

    Dear Zensim,

    I know it is complicated. It is because it is based on lies. Basically, the Society is the only ones who teach Jerusalems destruction was in 607. You will not find ANYWHERE proof for that date outside their literature. Believe me when I was first having questions I was desperate to find any kind of proof outside the literature to support 607. But no matter how hard I tried I couldn't find it. Finally I gave up, and realized we were being lied to. They have to keep that date, because without it they don't have 1914, nor, the authority structure they enjoy.

    If you take the Societys own literature on the different kings that reigned during that time and put them all together, with the Biblical acccounts from the scriptures, you have a complete harmonious list of Kings. Yet if you look up in the literature the destruction of Jerusalem and when it happened you get a conflicting date. My sister made a chart to show you what I mean. If you have any questions there has been alot posted on this forum regarding that whole issue. Let me know if I can help you to that info.

    Sincerely,

    L.L.

    Please keep in mind while reviewing this that adding years is actually going back in time.

    539 =Fall of Babylon (history and society both agree=insight book volume one under Babylon) + 17 =Nabonidus years of reign (society agree=insight book volume two under Nabonidus) 556 =Labashi-Marduk reigned 9 months (society agree=01/01/65 watchtower) + 4 =Neriglissar years of reign (society agree=01/01/65 watchtower) 560 + 2 =Evil Merodach years of reign (society agree=01/01/65 watchtower) 562 + 43 =Nebuchadnezzar years of reign (society agree=insight book volume two under Nebuchadnezzar ) 605 + 21 =Nabopolassar years of reign (society agree=02/02/69 watchtower) 626 According to the math Nebuchadnezzar began rule in 605 and reigned 43 years till 562. Now we know Nebuchadnezzar took over Jerusalem in his 18/19 year. So take 605 and subtract 18/19 years and you get 586/587

  • searching4truth
    searching4truth

    So couldn't it be argued that they were not all from the first century therefore the greater number might have been after apostasy crept into the congregation and therefore the number of "true christians" is much smaller.

  • Lady Liberty
    Lady Liberty

    So couldn't it be argued that they were not all from the first century therefore the greater number might have been after apostasy crept into the congregation and therefore the number of "true christians" is much smaller.

    Dear Searching4truth,

    Sure you could argue just about anything. However, if you think about it, at the rate Christianity spread during and after Jesus died, was incrediable. Thousands were being baptised in just one day, one biblical account says. Surely the great apostacy did happen just as Jesus fortold. But..even that being the case, would not the collection of those who died faithful have begun right after Jesus died? The Bible says Jesus was the firstfruit to heaven. But it also says that the faithful men of old were going home to heaven. So right there you have quite a number. Then all those that did die being tortured to death in the Roman colusiumns (spelling??), not to mention those that died from natural causes, who were faithful. Approx. 1,900 years or so ago Jesus died, does it seem reasonable that there was not at least 144,000 over 1,900 years that were faithful. That would be about 50 or so faithful each year worldwide.

    I personally can't see how that would be possible. Even with the apostacy that obviously set in. The Society wants to dismiss this whole thing and say that those Christians were only "professed" Christians. I can only imagine how angry I would be if I died by being eaten alive by lions or other wild animals only to later be considered a "professed Christian".

    I remember a account on the history channel about a faithful Christian woman whos story was so horrific that her death was recorded. All she had to do was deny Christ Jesus in front of everyone in the colllusium, and she would be set free. But she remanined faithful. So they stoked up a fire under a iron chair, and strapped her to it. She was slowley, and horrifically cooked to death. At anytime, she could renounce her faith and be freed. She refused, and the account says it took her all day to finally die.

    How many others were there? Thousands. The blood freely flowed in those terrible places. It angers me that people like that suffered for Christs sake, yet are being brushed off as professed Christians by the Society!

    Anyhow..that is just my findings and my opinion.

    Sincerely,

    Lady Liberty

  • searching4truth
    searching4truth

    I was just currious because at some point I imagine I will have to discuss these things with family and I can always use the best arguements, but I totally agree with you they died for Christ's sake and are being tossed away. Though the watchtower does occassionally reference them as true christians when it supports their case but they neglect the numbers.

  • Clam
    Clam

    Lady Liberty

    Glad to hear it all turned out ok. I hope Frosty's happy that the ice has been broken too. It was very magnanimous of your husband to do what he did, and once again it shows that so called "apostates" are just decent ordinary people.

    Clam

  • zagor
    zagor

    AWESOME!!!!

    Definitely an experience for Anti-Watchtower. Acutally we should really start publishing something like that

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