Women are in subjection to their husbands and to the Elders!!!!!

by Gill 109 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Gill
    Gill

    Blondie - I'm interested in what you say about the elders NOT being 'over' single sisters, etc. However, the Watchtower is asserting that all women are under male headship, even if it is only the Elders. It seems that a woman cannot exist without a man being 'over' her in the view of the Watchtower. It is a choice between her father, her husband, her husband AND the Elders, or just the Elders. This is the view I got from the latest Watchtower.

    Do you think this is a new stance to the Ayatollahs at Crooklyn?

    Are women in the congregation stepping out of line?

  • diamondblue1974
    diamondblue1974

    I see religion itself contributing to a massive extent to the male oppression of women in general and the JWs have certainly bought the master franchise in this area.

    Personally I believe the bible itself to contribute to the growing attempt by a patriachal society to minimise women and to treat them in a subordinate manner. One might argue that the bible doesnt make such attempt but merely assigns distinctive roles to gender but this is illusory in my opinion. In assigning gender specific roles it clearly discounts and deminishes womens ability to contribute in matters of leadership and organisation and places them in subordinate positions. Where biblical women have taken the lead, the fact that the bible has to mention this as something unusual or distinct sends a clear message that whilst women have and are able to take the lead this is not the norm and isnt encouraged.

    Any such attempt in the bible to hold women in high esteem therefore could be considered to be lip service and just an attempt to patronise the women mentioned; the question needs to be asked as to why the biblical author feels the need to make such comments; would the author have praised a man who carried out or demonstrated similar virtues? It would appear not.

    Even where the bible properly attempts to praise certain women, the bible cannot avoid being stereotypical in it's praise and even where such praise is not stereotypical, it has to be considered against the backdrop of various other scriptures which does deminish the role of women in christianity and in society.

    Admittedly there are numerous scriptures which refer to women 'prophesying' but in reading closer it seems to mean only bearing witness as opposed to foretelling future events. This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that no woman has authored any prophetic book contained within the bible itself.

    The bible however whilst contributing to a patriachal society should not be blamed; we live in a society where we are more intelligent and educated, we simply know better and I maintain that the bibles failings in this regard are merely indicative of it being written from a male perspective and at a time where women had less equal rights.

    Going back to my point, we now simply know better and any religious organisation that fails to move with the times in this regard is conveniently using such biblical passages to bolster its attempt to control women and to place them in subordinate positions.

    DB74

  • Gill
    Gill

    Great post DB!

    However, I do wonder what the real purpose is of the 'control' in so controlling, demeaning the value of women in society.

    Is it purely to control sexuality or is it pure mysogyny?

  • bernadette
    bernadette

    Gill/DB74

    The bible however whilst contributing to a patriachal society should not be blamed; we live in a society where we are more intelligent and educated, we simply know better and I maintain that the bibles failings in this regard are merely indicative of it being written from a male perspective and at a time where women had less equal rights.

    Going back to my point, we now simply know better and any religious organisation that fails to move with the times in this regard is conveniently using such biblical passages to bolster its attempt to control women and to place them in subordinate positions.

    Fascinating book I'm presently reading makes the above point. The Sins of Scripture by John Shelby Spong.

    Some headings under THE BIBLE AND WOMEN are

    The Women is not Made in the image of God

    Sexism in the Christian History

    The Woman as the Source of Evil

    Menstruation and the Male fear of Blood

    Recasting the Negativity

    The interesting thing is that the author was a bishop.

    bernadette

    bernadette

  • diamondblue1974
    diamondblue1974
    Is it purely to control sexuality or is it pure mysogyny?

    Good question, I think both apply but I would err more on the side of mysogyny; we need to consider the people behind the organisation, their age, their background and upbringing. First of all whilst there are a number of educated people within the organisation, those in positions of authority generally are not but even where they are, they are pretty much of the older generation and whose views of women are generally outdated.

    Those within the organisation who do not adhere to the biblical view of women and depart from it tend not to progress as that sort of person tends to be independent; even where such people do rise through the ranks, their lifespan in such position is limited as there is no place for independent thought within the organisation. Where such person has independent views but simply carries on regardless, he simply carries out the wishes of the collective in any respect and therefore no difference is seen.

    The new breed of elders and ministerial servants are products of a time where education was scorned and have little or no higher education other than skills or trades (not at all minimising such employment) and as such are not critical and do not have the capacity, will or ability to properly evaluate what they are being asked to do.

    Although I am in danger of over generalising we do see right at the top of the organisation that we have a group of mysogynistic men who distrust women and use the scripture to bolster this distrust. They adopt policies which in tune with these views ensure that women are controlled and repressed; whilst lower down within the ranks there might be differing and more liberated views on the treatment of women this has little or no effect because policy dictates differently.

    Its almost akin to a machine operator not liking or agreeing with the products the machine manufactures but still continues to push the buttons that creates the product. The operator is the man in a position of authority, the machine being the WTS and the product is mysogyny!

    Gary

  • sass_my_frass
    sass_my_frass

    When I was single my sister told me that I was subject to her husband, as he is the spiritual head of our family (Dad isn't baptised).

  • diamondblue1974
    diamondblue1974
    When I was single my sister told me that I was subject to her husband, as he is the spiritual head of our family (Dad isn't baptised).

    I bet that worked a treat LOL.

    I find it increasingly frustrating why women allow themselves to be subject to anyone, especially in this day and age of increasing equality and liberation.

    DB74

  • Confession
    Confession
    I find it increasingly frustrating why women allow themselves to be subject to anyone, especially in this day and age of increasing equality and liberation.

    Now this is an interesting point to me. Previously I made mention of having been in a car group with all mature sisters some years ago. When I attempted to suggest that women are capable of anything men can do--and that, perhaps, in the new system this would finally be acknowledged, and they'd have positions of authority, I was practically "boo'd" by them. They liked this concept of the man 'taking care of business.'

    I've noticed this before among some non-JWs. For instance, in the work I do on weekends. our staff is exposed to lots of families, as we offer them a college preparation package. Frequently only one parent will attend with the student. The most common objection one attempts to overcome is, "I'm sorry, I can't make this decision without my husband." This is something our staff deals with...BUT, when a male says he needs to speak to his wife first, the reaction from both male and female sales reps is quite the same. Yes, even many of our female reps will later accuse the man of being a "wuss," rolling their eyes and expressing how pathetic it is when a man has to ask his wife before making a decision.

    A year or so ago I was having a phone conversation with an old friend of mine. This is a very accomplished woman. She was a sales rep at a radio station I used to work at, but later became another station's General Manager. She went on to hold a management position with a Disney-owned television property. This is one of the most ambitious and driven women I've ever known. But during our conversation, she told me she voluntarily left her position. Not because of any problem with the employer--but because she just didn't want to deal with the responsibility anymore. She and her husband had separated some time before this, and she said, "I think I'm ready to find a man who's going to be the man." She wanted a man who would be the primary "bread-winner" instead of her, suggesting that this role comes 'more naturally' to a man. She wanted to work a bit, but mainly wanted to stay home and take care of the house. This was not something I ever expected to hear from a woman of her ambition and accomplishment.

    This all may seem apart from the specific point we're discussing, but I bring it up because I think there are lots of women who contribute to this male-authority model. Yes, some have been indoctrinated (by a religion or by society,) but others just seem to prefer it. Do you see this sometimes too?

  • Scully
    Scully
    I think there are lots of women who contribute to this male-authority model. Yes, some have been indoctrinated (by a religion or by society,) but others just seem to prefer it. Do you see this sometimes too?

    Absolutely. It's an easy escape route when you want to get out of something you'd rather not do, or not accept the entire responsibility for your actions.

    I know quite a few women who will use the "my husband would prefer" this or that routine to get out of a social or work-related commitment. Just like a lot of JWs use the "The Society says..." routine to absolve themselves of responsibility for their choice to shun and exclude exJW family members from "family" events. They say it as though the choice to make a choice has been taken away from them.

  • blondie
    blondie

    sass, as an adult, single woman not living at home, no man has authority over you, only Christ and only in the same way Christ is head over men. I hope you didn't buy into that flagrant twisting of the Bible. Christians do not live in patriarchal times. sass, I suppose he supported you financially as well?

    Blondie (yah, yah, I know some of you don't buy into the Bible, but when it is applied properly, you can hang these authority driven men by it)

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