Abbadon wrote:
Is it now? Okay, say I have 100 gazillion people at gunpoint, and will shot them unless you CHOOSE to be attracted to men. Will you be attracted to men? No, of course not, at most you could pretend. Thus I find your contention "not being able to choose who you are attracted to is a lie" is unproven.
Since marriage, I can successfully confirm from my own provable experience (fact if you will) that I have not been attracted to anyone else I am however, aware that should I have allowed my mind to wander I could easily have returned to a state of searching for love and attraction.
And if you "make a conscious decision to deny all feelings for others", you are kidding yourself; all you can do is decide to "commit yourself to one person only" even if you DO become attracted to others in the future.
See above point
It is perfectly possible to close off your feelings or desires - it is a permission of the will.
Ha! This is simplistic - you cannot eliminate the thought, only squash it if it occurs and not act on it. If you are otherwise you have achieved what many people have tried (and failed) to do for normally religious reasons - to eliminate sexual desires. How special... or is this a rose-coloured mirror?
No Abbadon - unfortunately fact blows away your words. I served a two year mission during which I indeed focused so intensely on what I was doing that I can confirm that I had no feelings of a sexual kind. I would not be inclined to believe what I just wrote save that I actually did it.
I suspect that almost all 'gay' tendencies as all 'straight' tendencies are a result of a choices we make.
Your opinion is irrelevent no mater how important you might think it is. Facts are what lead this discussion.
Remember Abaddon though you may think you own a monopoly on this forum and are the only one with correct factual opinion the fact is your not. Your opinion is as valid as mine but please don't suggest we are unable to share our thoughts.
Before puberty I was not at all interested in girls/boys (along with the majority of children I would suggest) but that didn't make me gay (or straight), when I hit puberty I went through a very confusing and scary experience where I suddenly had sensations I had no preparation for and didn't quite know what they meant.
I would say the cluenessness you felt on hitting puberty had a lot to do with your upbringing. Did your parents talk about sex, make it obvious sex was a natural part of their life, discuss with you what you might expect as you grew?
Do you actually care? Are you saying that this has any bearing?
It is no surprise to me that many come out of that scenario with a confused sexuality especially in a society that thrusts choice upon the ones who are most confused.
Again, a simplistic analysis. You assume their confusion results from being gay. You ignore the fact the confusion could be about being attracted to the same gender and not being able to accept or act on this attraction without negative concequences. You confuse common-or-garden teenage angst with the trauma a gay teen feels if they are raised in a environement where their being gay will cause them problems.
Yes a simplistic analysis but absolutely valid. No I did not suggest that any confusion arises from homosexual feeling only that amidst the confusion of puberty when decisions are made in the most volatile emotional moment it is entirely possible that gender confusion may occur. This society has successfully reduced the strength of marriage as a life long institution for raising children and has increased dramatically the impermenance of all forms of relattionship. Role models in the media have largely replaced the father and mother and with a few notable exceptions encourage sexual experimentation, self-gratification and selfshness. Almost without exception music and video aimed at children denigrates men and women to strippers, who dance around their groin and are often promoting mixed gender identity. I cite MTV for facts. If in fact you think that there is actually less confusion for the youth of today then good for you.
Coming from someone whose opinions are formed around their religious beliefs before any reference to reality I find your attitude ludicrous. You believe this, and you believe what you do about human origins, purely due to you being in a cult. Get over it.
Shame on you Abaddon - are you actually agreeing that one can choose how one is!!!??? I thought your basic premise is that it doesn't matter what one's beliefs are - reality will overrule them. Anyhow I never mentioned religion till now - you are dangerously close to revealing your driving bias against religion rather than staying on topic. My belief in human origins isn't anything to do with this and I doubt you actually know what my beliefs actually are. I'll get over things when I choose not when prodded by pedants.
Hell if I wanted to be gay I could look back on my childhood and find times when I didn't find women attractive but definately chose to hang out with other boys and could then make the leap
Hanging out is rather different from being ATTRACTED TO. Boys hang with boys and girls with girls as they have common interests and past-times. Boys ferk boy if they are attracted to them, likewise girls ferking girls. Boys and girls who are attracted to each other ferk each other. It really is that simple...
What did this have to do with my point? Nothing. I was arguing against those who look back to the childhood past and claim they knew they were different sexually then.
All I ever knew was that sex was some arcane mystic experience that adults had and it was all disgusting - 'you mean my parents do that ewwww!'. During puberty I found out (to a lesser extent!) what all the fuss was about but unfortunately I still feel a bit wigged out by the thought of my parents...OK I'm not going there.
Grow up; you wouldn't be here if your parents didn't do 'it', and if you don't like the fact your parents carried on doing 'it' then you are obsessing about the sex when you should be celebrating the love.
Of course I understand that the red rage had caused you problems understanding gentle humour. I won't hold it against you.
I think it is wrong to discriminate against someone for their lifestyle choice but I do have an issue with arguing its natural (sex is natural but penguins getting the wrong hole does not constitute the right to wear a gimp mask, abuse vegetables nor for men and women to justify their same sex decisions - why do you need a penguin as the excuse?
Gay people don't need excuses ; if you are so unbiased why do you feel they need an excuse?
I don't but some gay people do - I have seen plenty of gay excuses in my time. Why the red and underlining...?
Your characterisation of the ample evidence that homosexual behaviour is part of the natural spectrum of many species' sexual behaviour makes it obvious you've not studied the subject - it is so not 'getting the wrong hole'. If you are so un-biased why the false characterisation? Or is the "I'm unbiased" lip service?
No its not obvious that I haven't studied the subject - its just obvious that I made different opinions than you did. Nobody is unbiased - you especially.
I would have more respect if people who chose to be gay just said so
I would have more respect if people who had religiously predicated opinions just said so
I seriously doubt it Abaddon. You only seem to give respect to people who worship at the altar of your arrogance.
If I was having feelings toward a bloke I'd want to find out why since I know my genetics couldn't be responsible, my body couldn't be responsible (its just not built for men) and so I'd be looking at what was going on in my head that was making me feel that way.
Here you state things that simply are unknown; you cannot state that genetically speaking it is impossible to be attracted towards the same sex or not as there isn't enough evidence. But you seem to feel qualified to state what the vast majority of scientists (and most posters who've bothered quoting facts) do not feel qualfieid to state. Modest!
Feel free to post genetic facts to back up your points. I'd be interested in the gentic drives behind the modern western idea of the body beautiful against former ideals of beauty in say the Victoran society or even in different european countries. I'd like to see the gentic facts for a desire to have sex in parts of the body not designed for it. Of course you could just agree that its a choice but I understand your need to avoid that possiblity.
People don't like to feel they are to blame for their gratification of urges.
Qcmbr , if urges do not result in harm to uninvolved parties, why are they wrong?
If you ignore all else, answer this one...
Ah good point - since your critical reading skills are shot I'll clarify - my whole post is driving at the point that we are responsible for who we are - I am more than happy for people to politely disagree with that opinion. I made a good statement that actually stands well alone outside of any sexual arena.
