evolution or creation? lets talk...

by Sam87 537 Replies latest jw friends

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Deputy Dog, your latest post to Steve is yet another example of a creationist performing the usual attempts to sidestep discussions.

    Steve originally said:

    :: . . . within our time, a species has evolved into a completely separate species of plant or animal. . . In Washington two NEW species evolved about 50 years ago. . . Go back 100 years ago, and this species did not exist on the planet."

    You answered:

    :: Go back 100 years ago, and this species did not exist on the planet.

    : You mean they hadn't been observed anywhere on the planet.

    Your answer shows that you know perfectly well what Steve meant by "species". If you didn't, then your answer was either stupid or insincere.

    Steve answered:

    :: No. I mean they didn't exist on the planet. The were observed evolving.

    Obviously, he figured that both of you had agreed on the meaning of "species".

    You answered:

    : How do you know they never existed? And what makes this a new species and not a new variety?

    So here you introduced a new term, "variety", that you distinguish from "species". Now, if we assume that you have some idea of what you're talking about, then you must in your own mind distinguish between "variety" and "species".

    Assuming that you have some idea of what you're talking about, Steve asked:

    :: How would you define the difference between species and variety?

    You answered:

    : I'm glad you asked. That's not an easy question to answer!

    But you failed to answer the question! Nor did your source reference answer it.

    Steve obviously noted this, and repeated his question, not about what "species" means, but about what YOU think is the difference between the words -- which you yourself used differently and one of which you yourself introduced into the discussion. He said:

    :: That's why I asked it. What do YOU think is the difference between a species and a variety?

    You then continued your sidestepping and waffling with this:

    : So, you don't know either?

    The only conclusions one can come to is that you're either deliberately waffling, or you really have no idea what you're talking about. In the first case you're dishonest, in the second you shouldn't be opening your mouth. Which do you pick? Either way shows the arrogance produced by Christian fundamentalism.

    In a later post you said to me:

    : If you have to talk down to everyone you disagree with maybe you shouldn't post to them at all. That gets old real fast.

    I only talk down to ignorantly arrogant people who think they know everything and refuse to discuss anything rationally. A good example of this irrationality is dido's comment: "DD- didn`t you know that Alanf classes himself as the `Daddy` of evo?" Now, I in no way class myself as an expert in evolution, since an expert would have to have a good deal of formal education in a variety of biological topics, which I most certainly don't have. So dido's comment is grossly ignorant because it's not only wrong, but has no basis in anything I've ever posted. It's also grossly arrogant because it's obvious that she thinks she's so bright that she can figure out something that's so stupidly wrong about me. Do you really like being classed with such people? You're no dope -- not really. Why not quit acting like one?

    AlanF

  • dido
    dido

    Alanf- calm down, it was light hearted observation, must have had some truth then to have such an affect on you?

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Steve

    using your example of your Bloodhound and my Field Spaniel, these would not be classed a separate species in the evolutionary scope, as these breeds of dog can procreate together. Producing another dog. (of coarse the copulation process would be quite amusing to watch).

    Well my bloodhound and a wolf can procreate yet they are classed a separate species, same thing with polar bears and brown bears. Now there's the two plant species you mentioned they procreated together, weren't they separate species?

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    AuldSoul said:

    :: AlanF: I'm not sure what you're getting at. Please elaborate.

    : Evolution does not address the source of life on earth, i.e. its origin. Creation does.

    That's correct, although most creationists will disagree with you. Most evolutionists agree that the "origin of life" problem is a very different thing. In The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins shows this clearly, because evolution is a process, whereas the origin of life was most likely a one-time event. Most creationists want to lump the much harder to explain "origin of life" problem with evolution in order to muddy the waters.

    : The answer to the three questions I asked being "trivially" yes, allows for the possibility of a designer, a Creator, a God. There is no burden to externally prove the existence of God in order to observe the evidence in favor of design. I am comfortable with referring to the Creator as an alien intelligence.

    Ok. . .

    : I only ask that I not be burdened with having to overthrow the arguments in favor of or opposed to Intelligent Design, the religion, in order to argue in favor of intelligent design, the concept. In other words, I am not supporting other people's arguments, I am NOT cutting and pasting, and I refuse to answer to challenges presented by others against thoughts not my own, as though I must adhere to a certain ID creed simply because I believe there is evidence of intelligent design.

    I somewhat see what you're saying, but I'm sure you know very well that the ONLY reason that ID exists is to support the notion that the Intelligent Designer is none other than the Christian God. The founders of ID freely admit this to selected audiences. While in principle you have a point, in practice none of the great lights of ID agree with you. So I'm not sure where you're going with this.

    : Similarly, I also refuse to be bound by the beliefs of Creationists (religionists) simply because I believe there is evidence of a creative process.

    Ok, but I still don't see where you're going with this, except perhaps that you have some new ideas not already set out by others.

    : I believe can show strong evidence of the process of creation, that is creative process, by comparison to known creative processes.

    Ok, then do it. I think this will be an interesting discussion, perhaps best done in a new thread.

    AlanF

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Not at all, dido. The problem I have with comments like yours is that a lot of people mean them seriously, because all they have by way of argument is stupid ad hominems. If all you've been doing on this thread is pushing buttons, then I give you the one fingered salute. But I believe you've been sincere -- probably the worse of the two alternatives.

    AlanF

  • dido
    dido

    Alanf, i`ve been doing both, but you won`t have to put up with me anymore as am tired of this thread, so unless people keep mentioning my name after i leave, i won`t be back.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Alan

    Your answer shows that you know perfectly well what Steve meant by "species". If you didn't, then your answer was either stupid or insincere.

    No, it showed that we were talking past each other, something I hope we are clearing up.

    If you didn't, then your answer was either stupid or insincere.

    You just can't help it can you?

    Sorry, Alan, is this where I'm supposed to kiss your feet?

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    D Dog: Well my bloodhound and a wolf can procreate yet they are classed a separate species, same thing with polar bears and brown bears. Now there's the two plant species you mentioned they procreate together, were they a separate species?

    Okay, you misinterpreted what I said, or I didn't explain it correctly, so I'll try again. These two new species of plant (T. mirus and T. miscellus) only pollinate with the same type. That is T. mirus with T. mirus and T. miscallus with T. miscellus. You can read more about it at the journal Nature: http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v84/n4/full/6886540a.html

    Also, that different species can procreate demonstrates the evolutionary process. If these species had absolutely no family history whatsoever, then procreation would be impossible. That most separate species can't procreate demonstrates that, as with these plants, when a species can only interbreed, its definition as a separate species is unarguable.

    steve

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Talking past each other, DD? Please! How come little old me can follow the dialog so easily, then?

    AlanF

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    AlanF, have you read any papers presented by Michael Oard and his description of ice age formation, and the lack of water? I've just started reading some of his papers.

    steve

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