Grand and Lesser Apostate Delusions

by slimboyfat 100 Replies latest jw friends

LittleToe

Beardo:
Although the iconography chosen by old CT was rather telling, in terms of displaying his Masonic interests.
The iconography that you refer to isn't actually exclusively Masonic. The winged sun disk and the pyramid were in vogue in a number of groups of Egyptian interest, during the era. The cross and crown is linked to a number of Christian groups, but even the Templar movement (for which it is famous) isn't exclusively Masonic, either.
Notwithstanding that, later WTS leaders removed all of that symbolism - the reverse of what you'd expect if the conspiracies were true! What is especially telling is that there's absolutely no use of the square and compass, which are the foremost symbols of the Freemasons.
Notwithstanding that, I have little doubt that Russell was dabbling in the occult. I just reject the notion that he was a Freemason, nor likely an Illuminati. As for the subsequent WTS leaders, they were unlikely to ever make the grade. I frame it that way because, while I'm not a Mason, I have nothing but the highest regard for them.
Narkissos

One side remark re: the original post: I'm not sure that the fanciful "Watchtower-Mason" connection theory originated with ex-JWs, even though a number of ex-JWs did buy into it.
Beardo

The iconography that you refer to isn't actually exclusively Masonic. The winged sun disk and the pyramid were in vogue in a number of groups of Egyptian interest, during the era. The cross and crown is linked to a number of Christian groups, but even the Templar movement (for which it is famous) isn't exclusively Masonic, either.
Notwithstanding that, later WTS leaders removed all of that symbolism - the reverse of what you'd expect if the conspiracies were true! What is especially telling is that there's absolutely no use of the square and compass, which are the foremost symbols of the Freemasons.
Notwithstanding that, I have little doubt that Russell was dabbling in the occult. I just reject the notion that he was a Freemason, nor likely an Illuminati. As for the subsequent WTS leaders, they were unlikely to ever make the grade. I frame it that way because, while I'm not a Mason, I have nothing but the highest regard for them.
Of course, I can only use others research to form my opinions and I would say that CTR had knowledge of, and an interest in FreeMasonry based around his ideas concerning the pyramids and his use of those pesky symbols. As to whether he was actually an active member of a lodge will never be known and is categorically denied by the FreeMasons themselves. But, that doesn't actually concern me. I don't care if he was a Mason or not. Frankly, it was up to him who he associated with and what he believed.
As for him being a member of the Illuminati - that is nothing I am willing to explore, as to do so would be ridiculous. Nobody I know can fully explain who these Illuminati are, let alone tie a 19th century preacher into this shadowy group.
Why do you have a high regard for FreeMasons? They are servants that underpin this rotten system we exist in and help power the machinery of the legal and financial system. They are also a closed shop and operate out of sight. I have no respect for these fraternities as alluring as they are.
LittleToe

Beardo:
Of course, I can only use others research to form my opinions...
Oh? Is that the only way? What's changed in your methods since you were a JW?
...I would say that CTR had knowledge of, and an interest in FreeMasonry based around his ideas concerning the pyramids and his use of those pesky symbols.
Why do you hold the very restrictive belief that only Masons are interested in pyramids and symbols? Could it be that you are too busy reading other people's "research", rather than forming your own opinion?
Why do you have a high regard for FreeMasons?
Because I have a first-hand knowledge of quite a number of them, and bothered my ass to research them. The general tenets of making good men better seems to work for the majority, while not being forced to hold a particular dogma. I'm not saying for one moment that it's a flawless system, but it seems to work for most. It almost seems a shame that it's dying off through insufficient interest in moral growth.
They are servants that underpin this rotten system we exist in and help power the machinery of the legal and financial system. They are also a closed shop and operate out of sight. I have no respect for these fraternities as alluring as they are.
I take it you came to that conclusion from other's research?
Aside from that, aren't we all servants, playing our part in the charade of this "rotten system"? What do you feel is so rotten about it, anyhow? It has evolved into what it is, and continues to develop. Meanwhile our lot in life is generally far, far, far better than it was in the Middle Ages.
How can you disrespect something that you know so little about? Still believing in hearsay?
Beardo

We all use others information, even you Mr Toe - there truly is nothing new under the sun. How does my research differ to anybody elses here? I use books / websites and my own ability to sift the information and also direct contact with others who have experiences to share. Admittedly I have only crossed paths with 2 practising Masons and have knowledge of a 3rd through a friend. This particular Mason belongs to a Scottish lodge I believe, and is my friend's grandfather. Annoyingly, he won't talk in great depth about his beliefs to his Grandson and keeps the contents of his meetings hush hush.
I'm sure many Masons are well intentioned and good upstanding citizens within the community, so too Catholics, JWs, Muslims, (insert group here) - but the basic practise or premise of their belief system may still be false and helping in its own way to support the landowners and financial elite.
As for ' bothering my arse ' - I recently bought Manly .P. Halls "Secret Teachings" and am currently working my way through it. My knowledge is work in progress.
Whats rotten about the system? Are you joking. Take a good look at the news.
What Middle Ages are you referring to? If you are isolating your scope within Europe, then maybe so. England was known as the dirty man of Europe, for good reasons.
Lets go back thousands of years to the ancient far East cultures or even pre-Egypt and take a peek there. Places where folk were truly connected to the inner & outer worlds of reality. Not a stinking 'dark age' generated by the backwards thinking Christian Church.
I will say it again - check out that DVD series ' Magical Egypt ' - it is a real eye opener. If you want a copy and trust me not to turn up on your doorstep - send me a mailing address and I'll do the rest.
Satanus

Beardo
How would you feel/what would you do if one of them offered to sponser you to become a mason?
S
Beardo

How would you feel/what would you do if one of them offered to sponser you to become a mason?
I'd seriously have no interest - I'm not career minded, they would have nothing to offer me that would fulfill me, aside from the trappings of the system.
I can learn an ethical system elsewhere, away from their rituals, ceremonies, and big boys club gatherings.
LittleToe

The view you are presenting is certainly a very biased one. I've got access to Past Masters, etc. who are more than happy to share. I also have an extensive library, including Hall. Morals and Dogma by Pike is worth a read, also.
The only thing they really keep secret are the modes of recognition, and you'll find them on a number of websites - hence hardly secret. Further, if you think it's only about personal attainment in a fiscal world then you really have been misinformed as they tend to look down on that kind of an applicant. It's more to do with personal improvement.
You're quite right in saying that you can find it in any number of other places. That's one major reason why I never joined (and I was invited to consider it by several close friends).
LittleToe

Btw, of course I'm talking about Europe, and the Middle East and Asia, for that matter. The North Americas weren't even on the world scene at that time. Most every people of that era had medicinal practices that would be deemed barbaric by todays standards, with high infant mortality rates and a low life expectancy. The cultures of the time had little regard for human life, as can still be seen in some third world countries today.
The ancient Egyptian culture is something that holds great interest to Masons and quite a number of other groups. However even they had some unusual treatments. The DVD series sounds interesting though. I've been interested in all things Egyptian since I saw the Tutankhamen exhibition in London in the 70s. Thanks for the offer. I'll PM you, and return the DVDs once I've seen them.
Meanwhile, kindly explain to me why today is so "rotten" in the context of history?
Beardo

kindly explain to me why today is so "rotten" in the context of history?
I have heard the arguments concerning the advancement in medicine before and that may be true to a degree of course, but there is still barbarism at play within our so-called advances. Like pointless animal experients, ineffectual cancer treatments and the blatant disregard for alternative and holistic therapy in the West. Not to mention horrendous little white pills being pumped at the general public for all sorts of reasons like supposed anxiety disorder, depression, etc etc We are at the mercy of doctors who are persuaded through funding to support certain brands by the pharmaceutical agencies - I know this for a fact, as I have spoken to my own GP about the drug situation.
I have a friend who has had to watch small children scream out in agony whilst being "treated" for various kinds of cancer and she eventually concluded that the symptoms provided by radio' & chemo' "therapy" (sick joke) were simply not worth it and then we have alternative cancer cures that are often rejected or hidden from plain view because these do not suit the status quo.
I believe we are creating the conditions through our abuse of the earth that allows many of these health related disorders to arise in the first place. Like the unexplained (you can check the records) rise in brain tumors in youngsters, which coincides nicely with the new technology we see everywhere ..... mobile phones! Mobile phone technology has been described by a few researchers as one of the biggest blind-experiments upon the general public in decades, because the guys in white coats simply don't understand at present the possible ramifications of their use en masse. They have even erected mobile phone masts near schools in many areas!! How stupid can you get. Our childrens tissue is not fully formed, yet they cast an unnatural vibratory field across areas that our young frequent with a blatant disregard for health and it has to be said the feelings of the local population who would prefer the landscape to remain intact.
So, one of my key arguments I suppose, would be the rapid rise in technology which has obviously affected us on many different levels. A two edged sword, maybe, but for me, I can see more bad than good at present.
This rise in technology is also augmented and employed within the military field and surely you will not deny the potential for slaughter of us as a species in the next world war, which is brewing at the moment if you look at the middle and far East. The signs are there. They have even used in recent years depleted Uranium in shells - do a little research and pick the scab off that one if you dare!
God, then we have TV and its impact upon our lives - but that is for another thread maybe, because I need to eat.
As a secondary argument, I will place the idea of social engineering before you; creating an environment of individuality that has divided us as a society and made us into docile little consumers. I recommend a series called " The Century of the Self " - which I will also send on one of the disks. I couldn't present the case for rank selfishness as well as those documentaries do.
I'll leave it here and will sort a couple of DVDs out for you, that I don't want back. You can balance cups on them if you choose to ;-)

Grand and Lesser Apostate Delusions

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