by slimboyfat 75 Replies latest jw friends
Contrary to forum opinion, Jehovah's Witnesses are not an evil cult.
I disagree. Any organization that physically or psychologically segregates its membership from society as a whole is dangerous. Any organization that seeks to control the most personal aspects of a person's life, and imposes sanctions for non-compliance is toxic.
W
Finally-Free said : Any organization that physically or psychologically segregates its membership from society as a whole is dangerous.
Something about that reply to the initial statement that "JW's are not an evil cult" stood out to me and I would like to get clarification from other posters.
Do any of you think/understand that the WTS (an organization) is the same as JWs (an individual)? I always thought that they were seperate. The Bible says that each will render an account to God on an individual basis - Romans 14:12.
I grew up and lived as a JW for 35 years. Never did I think that the WTS and JWs are the same in any way, shape or form. I felt that my relationship with God was personal with him only, regardless of it being close or not. Hence, a JW. There is no mistaking that, in my testimony.
The WTS, on the other hand, was a human run organization/corporation. This is what I was taught from my childhood from the elders, my mother and the older ones in my congregation. They (WTS & JW) are not the same. Apparently many here feel that they are the same. Why? Is it because you were taught such or just believed it because it seemed somewhat parallel?
Alligator Wisdom (aka Brother NOT Exerting Vigorously by WTS standards)
Sorry if I threw this thread out of tangent with my remarks above.
I should have made it a seperate topic on an exclusive post.
Alligator Wisdom (aka Brother NOT Exerting Vigorously by WTS standards)
At one point I ran across a website set up by Mormons who don't believe in Mormonism, but enjoy and respect the lifestyle and community. They even had a name for people in their category, but I can't remember what it was (it wasn't 'semi-apologists'). So they remain anonymous, living the Mormon life, but secretly thinking it's all a crock. I don't remember how I found that site.
I grew up and lived as a JW for 35 years. Never did I think that the WTS and JWs are the same in any way, shape or form. I felt that my relationship with God was personal with him only, regardless of it being close or not. Hence, a JW. There is no mistaking that, in my testimony.
Alligator Wisdom, I will suggest that this mindset is not at all common among JWs. I too was a JW right up until the age of 38, and served as an elder--and, while I know there was some lip service to how "the organization is run by imperfect men," I also know that this organization (managed by the Watchtower Society) very definitely teaches that there is no legitimate faith in God apart from faith in them.
?The first essential for study is the right condition of mind and heart, appreciating that Jehovah grants understanding only to the meek, and not to the stiff-necked. If we have love for Jehovah and for the organization of his people we shall not be suspicious, but shall, as the Bible says, 'believe all things,' all the things that The Watchtower brings out?? [Qualified, 1955, page 156]
As a former elder, I can positively attest that when brothers or sisters verbalize doubts about any WTS teaching, this brings on great scrutiny--especially if the elders' attempts to "explain" such teachings are not met with rather immediate acceptance.
"Those who desire life in the New Order must come into a right relationship with the organization." [Watchtower, November 15, 1981, pp. 16-17]
What is "the organization?" You cannot simply believe it constitutes the many men and women who fill the Kingdom Halls of Jehovah's Witnesses, without acknowledging why they are there. They are there because the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society persuaded them (or their family members) that they were teaching "The Truth." This "Truth" did not spontaneously generate from the groups of JWs in various congregations throughout the world. It was taught, altered, re-taught and declared such by a religious publishing company that considers itself the special, human instrument used by Jehovah's "channel of communication."
Confession said : I also know that this organization (managed by the Watchtower Society) very definitely teaches that there is no legitimate faith in God apart from faith in them.
Thanks for your reply even though I didn't want to hijack this thread.
I refused eldership twice because of what the WTS teaches on certain matters along with my personal relationship with God.
I was taught from the age of 5 years old being raised as a JW that being a servant of God was a personal one. Regarding the quotes that you kindly posted, I am well aware of. What Christian of any demonination would believe that? That includes many of JWs that I know. From what I was taught from the Bible and from my congregation was that Jehovah uses a "channel of communication (true, whether it be an individual, the Bible, HS or a group/organization), but that Jehovah also can use any channel he wishes. It may be outside our perception, which may include the WTS angle or stand.
Many JWs know that some of what the WTS teaches just doesn't fit into the Bible. Yes, many do! You feel/felt the same and so do most of those who post here. I myself am included. Who really can seriously believe what the WTS teaches if it isn't in the Bible? A Christian with a pure motive is what matters to Jehovah in that we follow Christ as our Leader. The WTS may print things, but it is up to each individual to "make sure of all things" (1Thessalonians 5:21).
So, did any of you out there really think that the WTS and JWs are the same? Especially even after reading some of the quotes that the WTS had printed that through an organization is how we may see Paradise? That alone would throw up red flags that being a JW is not the same as being a Watchtowerite. I doesn't matter what any humans say. It only matters what Jehovah says.
Sorry again to SlimBoyFat for highjacking your thread. Perhaps I committed an infraction by violated posting guidline rule #10. (Forgive me)
Alligator Wisdom (aka Brother NOT Exerting Vigorously by WTS standards)
Vitty, I'm there because I want to keep my immediate family intact, and because supporting my wife in her endeavors (even if I disagree with them) is a way of demonstrating that I love her and am willing to sacrifice for our marriage. If I were unmarried, I would be long gone. It's likely that I wouldn't go if we didn't have kids, either, but we do.
I am working as hard as I can to non-invasively, non-offensively show her the problems with this religion, but just completely closing off that portion of our lives would almost certainly lead to divorce.
I'm reaching for the gold ring. If this requires me to endure the scorn of people who consider me a hypocrite, so be it.
slimboyfat said:
: Contrary to forum opinion, Jehovah's Witnesses are not an evil cult. They are good natured people who purportedly believe in a mixture of old fashioned values and distintive biblical doctrines.
Tell that to the thousands of abused people who have been forcibly cut off from their families, undergone divorces, lost children, parents and other loved ones due to Watchtower-induced shunning.
You're arrogantly above it all for one and only one reason: your ox has not yet been gored.
Alligator Wisdom wrote:
: Do any of you think/understand that the WTS (an organization) is the same as JWs (an individual)? I always thought that they were seperate. The Bible says that each will render an account to God on an individual basis - Romans 14:12.
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. I don't think anyone on this board confuses, or thinks that individual JWs are confusing in a technical sense the Watchtower corporations with the religion that calls itself "Jehovah's Witnesses". Are you trying to say that some people on this board think that some JWs think that the Watchtower Society's corporations are equivalent to Jehovah? I ask that because of your next statements:
: I grew up and lived as a JW for 35 years. Never did I think that the WTS and JWs are the same in any way, shape or form. I felt that my relationship with God was personal with him only, regardless of it being close or not. Hence, a JW. There is no mistaking that, in my testimony.
Here you seem to be switching from "JWs" to "God" without a pause.
: The WTS, on the other hand, was a human run organization/corporation. This is what I was taught from my childhood from the elders, my mother and the older ones in my congregation. They (WTS & JW) are not the same. Apparently many here feel that they are the same. Why? Is it because you were taught such or just believed it because it seemed somewhat parallel?
I really do think you're confused, so let me give you a bit of history.
C. T. Russell made no bones that the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania that he had created, and the various subsidiary corporations he created, were not the equivalent of the loose group known as Bible Students that he had created. Neither group was originally the equivalent of God. However, because Russell was the head of the Watchtower corporations and the Bible Students, and the only way that his religious group called Bible Students put information out to the world was through the various Watchtower corporations, and he claimed that God used him and his various organizations to preach to the world, it's obvious that in practice, there came to be no difference between the Bible Student organization and the Watchtower Society, and Russell's followers considered whatever they read in Watchtower publications to be the Word of God.
When Rutherford took over, he gradually jettisoned most of Russell's teachings and caused the Bible Students / Watchtower corporations to become even more centralized. He wrote a number of articles in The Watchtower instructing his followers that "the Society" was God's organization and that God spoke to them only through it, and so it became dogma among the Bible Students of the late 1920s, and subsequently "Jehovah's witnesses", that "the Society" was equivalent to the religion and organization that called itself "Jehovah's witnesses". And again, since Jehovah spoke only through this religion and organization, these were equivalent to God. And again, since this religion and organization spoke only through the publications and officers of the various Watchtower corporations, these were also equivalent to God. I know very well how this worked, because my Dad was a low-level Bethel official in the early 1940s, serving alongside the same men who are now the highest officials in the various Watchtower corporations. To these men, "the Society" was a synonym for the various Watchtower corporations and for the men who are the leaders of the religion now known as Jehovah's Witnesses.
Over the years, various JWs, including some Watchtower leaders, have attempted to make distinctions between the Watchtower corporations and the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses. But these distinctions are artificial, because the men who actually run things in each supposedly different organization have generally been the same men. For example, until about 1971, the President and Vice President of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Nathan Knorr and Fred Franz, were literally the leaders of the religion of Jehovah's witnesses. There was also a group of "directors" of this Society, but they had no real power, although for political purposes they were sometimes referred to as a "governing body". What Knorr and Franz decided as leaders of the JW religion and the JW organization were put forth through the various Watchtower corporations. So again in pratice, "the Society", the JW religion and organization, and "God" were pretty much all the same in the minds of most JWs.
The only difference in the way things are run today is that the men of the Governing Body are not officers of any of the many Watchtower corporations. This has only been since 2000, when for liability reasons the Society split itself into many more pieces. Nevertheless, this Governing Body still dictates all of the corporate actions, including publishing their religion doctrines and policies, and running organizations like the Service Department which in turn runs the hiearchy of officials in the field, such as Branch, District and Circuit Overseers, and to which all Bodies of Elders are responsible.
The fact that these organizations are viewed as equivalent to God is proved by the fact that to disagree with what the Watchtower corporations publish or its officials say is grounds for accusations of apostasy and disfellowshipping.
AlanF
Hi AlanF and thanks for your reply/explanation.
Sorry if my expression wasn't clear to you.
: I grew up and lived as a JW for 35 years. Never did I think that the WTS and JWs are the same in any way, shape or form. I felt that my relationship with God was personal with him only, regardless of it being close or not. Hence, a JW. There is no mistaking that, in my testimony.
Here you seem to be switching from "JWs" to "God" without a pause.
"Hence a JW" = meaning a witness of Jehovah. My relationship with Jehovah God was personal and didn't include the WTS in any manner.
I really do think you're confused, so let me give you a bit of history.
I appreciate the time and effort it took for your detailed explanation. I am aware of most of the facts that you are telling me. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear and I apologize if the question I asked seemed hazy. (I'm the Far East and the time now is in the wee hours of the morning. Yes, burning the midnight oil).
What I'm was trying to ask was that if any here think that the WTS and those who call themselves JW are the same? I feel that I'm a JW, but not a part of the WTS in my relationship with God. Even though the WTS may claim to have the Religous order of JW and the Christian congregation of JW, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are JWs. The WTS can even say that they are JW, but then again, anyone can make the claim.
All the futile attempts of Russell, Rutherford, Knorr and the old gang in their lengthy explanations trying to gather men for themselves isn't well hidden. Who would actually believe that God spoke only thru the WTS and that the Society were the equivalent to God? Inquiring minds wouldn't. And yes, I know of many JW who don't believe what the WTS teaches. If it isn't in the Bible, then it doesn't hold water. The Holy Scriptures are the authority in any teaching.
An individual who is a witness of Jehovah God (JW) isn't a Watchtowerite (WTS member). The head office in Brooklyn may claim otherwise, but it isn't true. How can man be the intercessor between humans and God Almighty? Impossible. Only Christ the King is.
Who really cares what the WTS teaches if it isn't in the Bible?
Alligator Wisdom (aka Brother NOT Exerting Vigorously by WTS standards)
Ok, Alligator Wisdom, I see what you're talking about.
You consider that there are at least two types of "Jehovah's witnesses", of which we're concerned with these:
(1) The generic "witness of Jehovah" in the sense that one bears witness to one's faith about Jehovah.
(2) The specific "one of Jehovah's Witnesses" in the sense that the person so designated is a member of the religion that calls itself "Jehovah's Witnesses" and takes a vow, through baptism, to obey "God's spirit-directed organization", i.e., the one that issues its directives through various Watchtower corporations.
In answer to your original question, there are a few posters on this board who appear to consider themselves in category (1). However, only a small fraction of them also consider themselves in catetory (2). Most posters on this board are ex-JWs, and I'm sure that when they were still JWs, they believed, as I was taught from infancy, that there is no difference between (1) and (2). This is what I tried to explain in my previous post.
The Society itself has long taught that there is no difference between (1) and (2). Indeed, as I vaguely alluded in my previous post, the very term "Jehovah's witnesses" (with an uncapitalized "w") is a generic term that technically means (1) but was chosen to confuse unwary people into thinking that (1) actually means (2). This deliberate attempt to confuse people is clearly shown in the 1959 'history' book Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose, which actually argues that because Abel and Jesus were "witnesses of Jehovah" in the generic sense, they were also "Jehovah's witnesses" in the special sense, meaning members of the religion whose instructions today come from the Watchtower Society! Thus the book argued that "Jehovah's witnesses" are the world's oldest -- indeed the original -- religion! Note that the Society began using the proper name "Jehovah's Witnesses" rather than the generic term "Jehovah's witnesses" for the religion about 1977.
That you were taught a more reasonable view is unusual. Perhaps it's due to your location, or perhaps to a few individuals whose views differed from those of the Society itself. But the majority of JWs around the world are of the opinion that categories (1) and (2) are the same, and so to question "Jehovah's organization" is to question Jehovah himself. That's the reason disfellowshipping for disagreeing with the Watchtower Society exists. In other words, this whole nonsensical view comes from the leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses, not from individual rank and file JWs.
AlanF
