Rejecting God or rejecting religion?

by kojo 66 Replies latest jw friends

  • Inquisitor
    Do I get a badge or something? Is it like, the equivalent of becoming an unbaptized publisher?

    Well, did you get anything tangible from the WTS when you became an unbaptized publisher?


  • Perry


    Suppose for a moment that you were God and you knew that the moment you created freedom and not pre-programming in highly intelligent creatures that great evil would eventually be acted upon. Would you still do it?

    We are all confronted with two possible views of reality as we have both touched on. Either we live in an evil universe where a Loving God is an oddity; or we live in a loving universe where the acting on the possibility of evil is at odds with the basis of things.

    One of these views is a world flying upside down. However both views infer intense conflict. You've no doubt read many testimonies of peoples' relationship with God, some very dramatic. There are millions of them, not just the ones on this thread. Because the basis of these peoples' universe is Love, they've placed themselves in a position through belief and trust (requirements for functioning relationships) to reciprocate that loving dynamic. It is personal and private and very, very special. It yields alot of dividends too numerous to recount. Frankly, I'm not inclined to discuss all the intimacies I've experienced with's that special. Some of it is just between Him and me. However, as the relationship has progressed I have come to trust even more his judgement on things, even if I don't understand it all. I keep pressing the relationship further. I don't know where it will eventually go. I take him at his word and have even pressed Him on his intentions with me with very positive results.

    God has given answers to some of your questions but you don't like them because they are at odds with your view of the universe. Your view has evil as the basis of things and a Loving God as an oddity. How's that view working out for you?

    When I had that world view, it didn't work our very well for me at all. I personally came to the conclusion that I was living in a world flying up side down and not right side up. If that view works well with your personality... fine.

    If the basis of things is evil then reality is just the "same ole shit different day". If the basis of things is Love then their is a fantastic war going on as the widespread practice of evil confirms. And we need every soldier including you . But be warned, this war is fought like no other.

    Why don't you just believe God and he'll explain it all to you personally and you won't have to rely on peoples' testimonies to find out if he exists or not?

  • JamesThomas


    What's to convince anyone that you're not as deluded as the next person? THough you feel you've experienced that which transcends all ego, what's to suppose that you're not one more layer short of an onion skin? We're all a bunch of firing neurons, right?

    I can not say or do anything which will convince anyone. I can not give you what you already are, anymore than I can taste an apple for you.

    If we can be still of thought, and place attention silently on the actual, intensely intimate and immediate sense of being and soothing warmth of aliveness -- here in this inner pool there will be sensed an unfathomable depth. Allow this silent, effervescent sweetness to convince you.


  • Apostate Kate
    Apostate Kate

    I loved todays devotional and thought I'd share it. This is a daily email from "The Purpose Driven Life" people. Perry you could have written this. You have a common writing style.

    When Bad Things Happen

    by John Fischer

    When bad things happen to good people we can be assured that this is God, out to make good people better.

    There are so many things in life that make us cry, “Why?” “Why me?” “Why now?” I don’t think we are capable of knowing all the answers to these questions. Our lives fit into a vast and complicated tapestry that only God could unravel, because he’s the one making it. There are things that happen in our lives that are tied in an intricate domino effect to something else happening somewhere else that we may never realize in this life. I’ve heard of enough bizarre connections to know this is happening a lot more than we realize. Chalk it up to God’s amazing creativity as he weaves his will into the events of the world.

    Someone gets sick, goes to the hospital, and ends up leading the person in the next bed to the Lord. Not only this, but huge growth issues were established in both of their lives when this happened, and this started a chain of events still going on today. And we want to ask “Why?” I have a feeling God might say, “You don’t have time for that answer. Besides, you haven’t lived long enough to see the end of it. Sorry, but I could never explain it all to you. You just have to trust me.”

    Our job is to look at what happens in our lives and learn from what God is trying to teach us. There are no mistakes here. God doesn’t go, “Whoops!” or to the angels: “OK, what went wrong here? Which one of you guys had Fischer this time?”

    Here’s the truth of the matter: “And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them.” (Romans 8:28 NLT) Which is another way of saying that God’s purpose is in everything that you and I go through, whether we are able to see it or not. And that purpose is producing something good in and through our lives, no matter what happens. Do you believe that?

    We all have things in our lives in which it is hard – almost impossible – to see God’s purpose. That doesn’t mean anything except that we are shortsighted and short on faith sometimes. That’s when we need to keep on believing and knowing that God is working things out for the best.

    What about you? Is something bad happening to you right now? Think back on a time when you felt like this about something that you now see God had a purpose in, and believe that he is at work, doing the same redemptive act with what you can’t see right now and believe. Don’t stop believing.

    John Fischer is the Senior Writer for Purpose Driven Life Daily Devotionals. He resides in Southern California with his wife, Marti and son, Chandler. They also have two adult children, Christopher and Anne. John is a published author and popular speaker.

    Click HERE for a free subscription to The Purpose Driven Life Daily Devotional, your daily inspiration via email.

    Click HERE for a free subscription to The Better Life, your spiritual growth e-newsletter with articles by Rick Warren and others. To see a sample click HERE.

  • LittleToe

    Is there another layer beyond the "unfathomable depths"?

  • JamesThomas

    I have never found a bottom.


  • LittleToe

    Have you discounted the possibility?

  • JamesThomas

    Realizing our true Being, is not a mental activity, like discounting and accounting for things is. Rather, it is stepping into what is before and beyond all thought. It is a peace, beyond all understanding.....and it is not something added to you, but rather what you are.

    So, I am not trying to run and hide from your question, it just does not really apply.

    I can not put into words the utter purity that you actually are. When it is seen, the mind realizes it has entered into a holiness (for lack of a better word), that it can not touch....even though the mind exists within it. There is no need or desire to manipulate it, and besides it is clearly seen that there is no other, to manipulate it. You are everything; but no particular thing.

    So, if you are curious about "layers", then you jump in an investigate. You, tell me: are there the possibility of layers? Start by seriously investigating into who is it that is asking the questions.


  • poppers
    What's to convince anyone that you're not as deluded as the next person? THough you feel you've experienced that which transcends all ego, what's to suppose that you're not one more layer short of an onion skin? We're all a bunch of firing neurons, right?

    There is no convincing anyone of this - that really is quite worthless, actually. The only thing worthwhile and relevant is the actual seeing this for yourself. Otherwise it turns into another philosophy, or (gasp!) a religion which is based on ideas only. This is why JT and I repeatedly state to see this for yourself, to see what's here right now. To see what's actually here right now one must let go of ideas, for ideas are old because they are the past. Every idea anyone has is based on the past. Even the occassional "novel" idea can become a weight around the neck of the one who hatched it. This is not to say that ideas don't have their place, they do; it's just that to know what you are, ideas must be relinquished.

  • LittleToe

    So you've both splashed around in the "sea of forgetfulness" and are telling everyone else to "come on in, the water's lovely", but you haven't considered that somewhere down there beyond the leviathans there might be a sea bed, and below that, and below that, and below that?...

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