thirdwitness wrote:
: So Alan F and others, your defense is this:
: Ezekiel was wrong when he said that Egypt would be desolated for 40 years without an inhabitant in the land by Nebuachadnezzar. We know it was never fulfilled and was an inaccurate prophecy because secular history records no such 40 year desolation of Egypt therefore it has to be wrong.
Essentially, yes. However, you left out the most important point: the reason WHY this prophecy must not be take literally: Ezekiel demonstrably falsely prophesied about the ultimate rebuilding of Tyre, and all of his other prophecies are called into question.
Because you failed to acknowledge the fact that Ezekiel prophesied falsely, the rest of your statements are mere attempts to misrepresent the issue and misdirect your readers.
Readers will note that, up to this point in your silly rant, you failed to address the basic problem. While you say something about it in a later post (which I deal with), that doesn't help your case here.
: It surely couldn't be secular historians that are incorrect. So it must be Ezekiel and thus Jehovah who have mispoken. So who is putting who above the Bible's recorded words? It seems some even have decided they should denounce the Bible rather than admit JWs are right.
Merely pointing out the fact that the Bible was wrong in making a prophecy is not denouncing it. It is just pointing out a fact. If you don't like the facts, tough luck. You're in good company with a lot of other Fundamentalists.
: How much did you say you were selling the Brooklyn Bridge for again?
LOL! Anyone who can say that Ezekiel was a true prophet, despite his demonstrably false prophecy, is the one selling the Brooklyn Bridge.
: If you don't have an answer there is nothing wrong with admitting that you can't explain it.
I've given you a rock-solid answer. Your pretending that it doesn't exist doesn't make it not exist.
: Could it be that JWs are right after all? No, we mustn't admit that. We must come up with unreasonable explanations to discredit them at all cost.
Unreasonable explanations? The simple fact is that Ezekiel prophesied falsely, and therefore his words cannot be taken as gospel.
: 40 years does not really mean 40 years. It is symbolic. Desolated with no inhabitant doesn't really mean NO inhabitant.
Right. No more than Genesis 1 can be taken literally, because the facts of geology show that it can't.
: And as for your argument about Tyre you are merely shifting the argument to something else.
LOL! If I predicted in 2004 that the Watchtower Society would self-destruct in 2005 and that I would be selling the Brooklyn Bridge to thirdwitness in 2006, would you be preparing to buy the bridge right now?
: Are you arguing that the Bible is wrong and that Tyre proves that?
Your powers of understanding are very good on that point.
: And since the Tyre prophecy is wrong then the Egypt prophecy is wrong?
No. I clearly stated my point: Since the Tyre prophecy was wrong, the Egypt prophecy must be interpreted in light of the facts of history. And history proves that the Egypt prophecy was wrong.
: Why not take it a step further and say that if these prophecies are wrong then other Bible prophecies are no doubt wrong and thus the Bible is nothing but a man made book of some true prophecies but some false prophecies so it really cannot be depended on at all.
Why not indeed? For that is exactly what I'm saying.
: I know you would not be arguing that because that would surely make you an apostate and I'm sure you are not an apostate, are you?
Because I believe that the Bible is a manmade and quite fallible work, I suppose you could apply the label "apostate" to me since I do not believe in the existence in the God of the Bible. But it's a silly notion because I'm also an apostate with regard to all other Gods. And so are you. Everyone on earth is an apostate, and so the term is meaningless.
: I believe if you did a little research you would find that the ancient ruins of Tyre still sit over there in Tyre and that those ruins have not been rebuilt.
This is among the most stupid arguments I've ever seen.
: "Of the original Tyre known to Solomon and the prophets of Israel, not a vestige remains except in its rock-cut sepulchres on the mountain sides, and in foundation walls . . .
: Alexander made her a bare rock and threw debris into the water to make the causeway; fishermen now spread nets over the site (there is a city of Tyre today, but it is located down the coast from the original Tyre); the old city of Tyre has never been rebuilt, even though a great freshwater spring is located at the site, providing 10,000,000 gallons of water daily. It is still an excellent site today but has never been rebuilt, although many have tried.
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, but are relying on the demonstrably stupid and false claims made by the Watchtower Society about this. Part of ancient Tyre was on an island about a third of a mile off the coast where the rest of the city was. In the intervening millennia a sandbar has filled in the gap, so the location is now a peninsula. Today, the entire area -- island city, sandbar and coastal city -- is filled by modern Tyre (also called Sur or Sour). This is easy to verify. Get hold of "Google Earth" and look at the coordinates 33:16:12 N by 35:12:10 E. That puts you smack on the sandbar, which is filled with houses. Pretty cool, no?
: The very fact that it was prophecied at Ezek 26:5 that A drying yard for dragnets is what she will become in the midst of the sea.’ shows that it would have people there and that it would not be totally abandoned. But the ancient city still lies in ruins.
All ancient cities are completely in ruins, so this argument is completely stupid. Once ancient buildings crumble into ruins, by definition they cannot be rebuilt, because the stones from which they were built are now sand and gravel. And by definition, a city built on an ancient location and known by the same name has been rebuilt. To claim different is to make a ridiculous claim.
Jerusalem was completely destroyed several times. Are you going to claim that Jerusalem has never been rebuilt?
: So in summation here is the argument made by some.
: 607 is wrong because the Bible is not reliable on chronology. Since the bible is wrong JWs are wrong.
This is yet another total misrepresentation of the arguments. 607 is wrong because history shows it's wrong. The JW view on chronology is not the Bible's view on chronology; many posters on this forum and elsewhere have proved that. 607 is wrong because both the Bible and history show that it's wrong.
Your argument is the typical strawman we expect from JW defenders.
: Well, you got me there. If the Bible is not going to be accepted as accurate then JWs cannot prove or disprove any doctrines. 607, trinity, hellfire, God's name, the kingdom, Jesus as God's son and the way to salvation. We might as well discard it all.
Strawman arguments make for strawman conclusions.
: Alanf said: The problems with the website's argument are legion. I will only cover the basics in this post.
:: First, the website's author assumes that the 40-year desolation prophecy by Ezekiel was to have and actually did have a literal fulfillment. But the Bible contains many examples of claims and prophecies that might appear to have a literal interpretation, but which, in the light of uncontrovertible facts, can only be interpreted as symbolic in some sense. I give two examples below, the second of which completely destroys the website's claim.
:: Second, it ignores the demonstrable fact that the testimony of several independent ancient historical sources proves that Egypt's history was continuously documented through the entire period in question. I'll go into this in detail in a subsequent post. It really isn't necessary for the disproof of the JW defender website's claim, though.
:: Because the website is written by Jehovah's Witnesses who obviously feel that the JW Governing Body is "divinely directed", and therefore that Watchtower publications carry a weight of authority virtually equal to that of the Bible itself, in this series of posts I'll use such publications as an authority when I deem fit. I'll also quote scriptures from the Watchtower Society's New World Translation unless otherwise specified.
: By claiming that the problems are 'legion' he tries to pretend that there are so many problems with the 40 year desolation prophecy that it is easily overturned. But notice the 'legions' of problems he presents.
You seem to have a real reading comprehension problem. While I said that the website's argument's problems are legion, I also said that I will only cover the basics here. Having demonstrated that the basics, or meat, of the website's argument are wrong, everything else is moot.
: Basically they are:
: 1. The 40 year desolation is not literal.
: 2. Secular history of Egypt disproves it.
So far so good.
: 3. The writers of the site believe the GB are divinely directed therefore he at least seems to insinuate that the writer must be wrong.
There is no such insinuation. I merely reminded readers that it is Jehovah's Witnesses who believe that the GB are divinely directed, and therefore I would use their writings as an authority when I see fit. Try reading it again:
Because the website is written by Jehovah's Witnesses who obviously feel that the JW Governing Body is "divinely directed", and therefore that Watchtower publications carry a weight of authority virtually equal to that of the Bible itself, in this series of posts I'll use such publications as an authority when I deem fit. I'll also quote scriptures from the Watchtower Society's New World Translation unless otherwise specified.
: Do you consider those reasons to be 'legion'
Of course not, because they're the basics, as I said.
: or even legitimate?
Of course, because they're factual. That they're factual you cannot gainsay. Your only argument so far has been the ridiculous claim that ancient Tyre does not exist. Duh.
: To summarize he says, The 40 year desolation is wrong because secular historians say it is wrong
Correct.
: and because the WT says it is right.
Incorrect.
: I submit that 587 proponents have the 'legion' of problems and those problems are found in the Bible.
Wrong. The 587 date has no real problems. The problem for JWs is that they cannot distinguish between what the Bible says and what the Watchtower Society says it says.
: Before you bring up the prosperous rule of Amasis according to Herodutus during this time of Egyptian history let me do it for you.
I'm well aware of the Watchtower material you borrowed from. It changes nothing.
You're well aware that you cannot wiggle away from the simple fact that Ezekiel's prophecy about the ultimate fate of Tyre was false, and therefore that everything else he prophesied is called into question. All you can do is drag red herrings across the screens of readers, hoping that they'll be like JWs who fall victim to the Society's red herrings. Well, I've got news for you. On this forum, people have gotten away from the mentality of being a stupid sheep.
AlanF
