keo:
***The only thing I was trying to say is that I feel that most elders are sincere and are not evil people who are out to get you. That doesn't mean that I don't believe some of their beliefs are harmful. Like I have said consistently, I prefer to attack the issues not the person.***
Then we're almost on the same page after all, Keo! I agree that most JWs and some elders are sincere and believe they're doing the right thing. So do many other religious fanatics who cause harm to others by their actions. That they cannot see that they're doing great harm doesn't excuse them. It's very tempting to label them as evil, but you're right, they're mostly deluded. Remember that many on this board, including myself, have suffered to some degree from the WTS policies. Part of the healing process for many is to vent their anger at the JWs, some of it justified; some not. It's difficult to focus on issues when you have been injured by people you thought you knew and trusted.
Now, the gb, that's another matter for another time.
Does the Policy of the Watchtower Create a Safe Haven for Child Molesters?
by listen 149 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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parakeet
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jwfacts
3W
What this policy has shown is that the JW organization is not better or worse, but no different than any other man run organization. Thankfully it has alerted people enough to look at the history, evidence of holy spirit and doctrine of the WTS and realise that the entire organization is just another high control group, no different than 1000's of other doomsday religions that use fear to manipulate members. That is why the WTS last year only grew by 80,000 net publishers despite 1 billion hours witnessing. It is down hill for the WTS now, and in 50 years they will be as irrelevant as the second adventists of the 1800s.
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Big Tex
Elders are told time and time again that they should never discourage anyone from going to the police since child molesting is a crime.
And yet why do so many abuse victim report that they were not only discouraged but threatened with disfellowshipping (and the subsequent shunning) if they did report? I related to you an account about which I have personal knowledge. How many times has that exact same scenario played out in congregations across the country and the world? Surely not every single one of those victims are liars. Or is that what you maintain?
Still no proof is forthcoming. Only the same old rhetoric that anyone can say. Where are the instructions to DF anyone who reports uncorroborated or unsubstantiated child abuse? Where are the instructions to DF anyone who warns someone about a child molester? Where are the instructions to appoint child molesters as servants? Where are the instructions to tell victims they should not bring reproach upon the org by reporting child abuse?
>sigh<
I'm writing in English, I know I am.
I have given you several first hand experiences. Nowhere did I claim those men were acting on written instructions. Again and again I have asked you to account for the inexcusable behavior of such men, as well as the Society's actions to correct such misdeeds. You have consistently ignored me. Therefore I can only conclude that you are not only being deliberately obtuse but are more interested in spin doctoring the Society's rules.
You are not interested in helping people. You are not interested in the tens of thousands of people in your sect who suffer from the effects of child abuse. You simply want to score points, in an oh-so-smug way on the Internet. You truly do belong in your sect, where people are viewed as disposable and nothing is more important than selling moronically written, cheaply produced pieces of religious propaganda.
You want someone to quote to you some Watchtower magaizine that say it's okay for elders to threaten and intmidate child abuse victims? What do you think we're stupid? Of course nothing like that is written down. And I cannot believe you lack the intelligence to understand that point. I can only conclude you are playing some sort of game here.
You cannot show me the Biblical basis for the asinine and evil 2 witness rule for child abuse. Why? Because it doesn't exist. Jehovah's Witnesses have added to the Bible in direct violation of the scriptures. Do you truly think Jesus would be hung up on such legal technicalities as words like "may" or "can"? He consistently showed that when someone was in pain, irregardless of who they were (such as an 'apostate' Samarian), he reached out and did what he could to help. He did not do only what was legally required, he went above and beyond to truly help make a difference to that individual.
Why do Jehovah's Witnesses not do the same? Isn't your sect supposed to follow in his footsteps?
You have told us stories about child molesting some of which appear outlandishly exaggerated and none of which have been substantiated in a court of law.
"One man's death is a tragedy. A million deaths are a statistic." -- Joseph Stalin
I find it very sad, and more than a little pathetic, that you can so easily dismiss so many innocent children's pain. Jesus once said something about how he felt about those who would hurt a little one. That you do not agree says a great deal about your true feelings, as well as the sect ot which you belong.
keo15929 said:
But false allegations can and do occur. And they can be for any reason. A lot of times psychologists are guilty of creating false memories in children
Tap the brake. "A lot of times"? Please show me empirical evidence for this claim.
You seem to subscribe to the False Memory Foundation, whose claims are very shaky in the psychiatric community by the way. Yes memories can be induced, but it is a quantum leap to make the bold claim that "a lot" of psychologists create false memories. On what basis do you make this statement?
A child who can describe the act of oral sex, anal sex, or the taste of semen has not had false memories created. I'm sorry but attitudes like yours really irritate me. I lived the reality of repressed memories and no one "created" any memory. In point of fact I refused to believe what I had recovered and investigated my past by interviewing relatives who not only confirmed what I remembered but added to it.
I just wonder how all of you would react if you were the one being falsely accused?
How would you react if your rapist walked free?
The question cuts both ways and you miss the point of the discussion.
would hold the parents responsible for the safety of their children and they should do whatever it takes to protect them
You do realize that the vast majority of child abuse are perpetrated by either someone in the child's family or by someone known to the family. A stranger assaulting a child is the exception not the rule.
Your statement that the parents are responsible becomes irrelevent if the parents are the ones commiting the crime.
They feel they simply can't biblically do anything to the accused without the proper evidence. Unfortunately the proper evidence in this kind of situation often times is not possible to attain
Nonsense. Step out of the way, encourage the victim to report the abuse to the police and let the people who are trained handle it. "Proper evidence"? What is that? 2 witnesses? The vast majority of child abuse cases do not have 2 eyewitnesses nor are they caught on videotape. You do understand it is possible to convict a pedophile of child abuse without such "evidence" don't you?
I mean no disrespect to you, however I am not certain of where you're coming from on this issue. Perhaps it's me, but you keep sending out mixed signals.
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TooOpinionated
keo-I mean no disrespect, but I have personally had the elders tell me that if I warned anyone in the congregation about the molester I would be charged with slander. Then I was marked, then shunned-I'm sure you know the procedure. They made my decision to leave very, very easy intellectually. Emotionally it took longer.
I now proclaim to the entire world the seamy JW underworld-one I had no idea of as a JW until it effected me personally. There is no "both sides" in this particular situation.
What is, is.
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happy man
third wittnes.
What shall we do as have give in some o the eler and find that after they have addmit pornia widh someone under 15, the only punishment was stepp down as an elder, from the podium it was only stated XX is nolonger an elder..
Ofcourse this was very frustrating, and when I talk to the PO o he say it was no longer my busnis, I have to go on and put this behind me.
When I told som as ask why this lovly brother was moved avay as an elder I say like it was, but then the bigg probelms start, I was told that if I speak abut this i corse division in the cong, and if I and others talk about this they was forming a commite against us fore slandering.
CAN YOU ASK ME WHAT I CAN DO, i feeel very bad and also all peopel as know this in the cong, we are forced to bee quiet about this or we have to face dfd, I was in bigg chock when I understand how our headqurter handel this, it was in some ways morebad than the media have told about, and we have beeen told was lies, can you give me some addvise, I know wwe going to bee judged on a personal level, never can I stand upp and say whatwas told about us was lies, when I myself have expiriens somthing else.
love HM
ps.
We have a letter from HQ after the TV program about this problem among us, there they say we tell the police if the govermets laws say we must,
BUT IN MY COUNTRY IT IS NO LAW ON THIS, so we dont tell the police here, it is upp to the famyli to do this.
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shadow
keo,
You don't have children do you?
Even if most elders are well-intentioned, they are simply not qualified to interview children about allegations of abuse. Don't you know that such children are extremely fragile and have a high likelihood of injuring themselves or committing suicide? Would you really want to subject your child to the unpredictable amateur interrogation of the elders? I was an elder until last year and I would not permit it.
My child was molested by a man who had a prior history of child abuse and yet was serving as an elder for part of the time he molested my child. He was appointed before the WT policy changed. He was removed when the policy was changed, though the reason for his removal was not made common knowledge. Of course, no apology from the WT nor any offer of financial assistance to care for the needs of my child. We have struggled through many sleepless nights and suicide watches which still have not gone away years later and will not for the foreseeable future.
WT policy does not care about these children. It's primary purpose is to protect the WT. A few years ago at a KM (elder's) school, a WT letter was read verbatim to the elders in attendance. It was preceded by the odd announcement that no discussion or questions would be permitted. Do you think this type of action is designed to help elders be more competent to help in these cases?
I'm still a JW and have been for forty years, but I find 3rd to be utterly contemptible.
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wednesday
It is horrible what they have done allowing child molesters and rapists to have free acess to the cong. and to people in general by going door to door. Those that are victims have been told to be quiet unles they shoud be guilty os slander and face DF In many times they are indeed DF
You have come to the wrong place to spread your lies.
We are the victims, alas the survivors, myself one. Do not even begin to tell me what happened to me. I was there i know. It's a disgrace there are so many like you spreading lies and raping and molesting the victims all over again. yes that is what you do, rape and molest the victims all over again.
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thirdwitness
I realize that most here are not going to accept the truth about the WTS and their child abuse policy and that is fine. But for those interested in the real true policy of JWs without the rhetoric and exaggerations here it is. The other side of the story needs to be told to those who have been misled by SilentLambs. Perhaps it can do some good for truthseekers who are not blinded by hatred and have not yet become outright enemies of God's people.
Meanwhile we will wait for documented proof that contradicts the WT policy and supports what silentlambs and others say our policy is (rather than he said she said stories) and shows that it is not the best policy of all religions. If anyone actually brings anything forward then we will see if it can be addressed.
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fullofdoubtnow
I realize that most here are not going to accept the truth about the WTS and their child abuse policy and that is fine. But for those interested in the real true policy of JWs without the rhetoric and exaggerations here it is. The other side of the story needs to be told to those who have been misled by SilentLambs. Perhaps it can do some good for truthseekers who are not blinded by hatred and have not yet become outright enemies of God's people.
Thirdwitness,
I will say this again, as you obviously missed it when I made this comment earlier in the thread. I am not arguing that the wts does not have a child abuse policy, I have both heard it and read it. My argument is not with it's existence, but with it's implementation, or lack of it in some cases. I will again post my reply to one of your posts from last night:
You have told us stories about child molesting some of which appear outlandishly exaggerated and none of which have been substantiated in a court of law.
You ask for examples, so here goes, and these can be checked in the archives of UK newspapers, so don't brand them as apostate lies:
UK, Scotland: Ian Cousins, then a jw in good standing, was sentenced to 5 years imprisonment after ADMITTING in court that he was guilty of sexually abusing his two daughters. He admitted this to the elders when his daughters complained, and was given a public reproof. When the daughters went to the police, they obtained a copy of his confession to the elders under the Data Protection Act, which the elders had chosen not to make available to the police.
UK, Rugby, England: James Barrett was sentenced to 2 years imprisonment for sexaully assaulting 2 boys. He was serving as an elder at the time of his arrest, and congregation records, again obtained by his victims, showed that his fellow elders were aware of his "problem", but allowed him to continue as an elder until his arrest. What was that you said about no abuser being allowed to be an elder os ms 3rd witness?
UK, West Midlands, England: Jazwan Pati was sentenced to 5 years in prison after for sexually abusing two boys in his congrgation. Both families went to the elders first, but no action was taken. When the police became involved, again through the boys families, not the elders, an elder from Pati's congregation visited one of the victims family and tried to question him. He also called the boy a liar. The police had to threaten this elder with arrest to prevent him from further intimidating the boy and his family. After Pati's CONFESSION, conviction and sentence, the body of elders made it clear that they still believed him to be innocent and the boys to be liars. Both families left the jws and are now shunned, whereas Pati remains a jw in good standing. A clear case of the victims being persecuted.
You can check those examples, but I doubt you will. You accuse me of rhetoric - well I've provided examples of times when your precious jw child abuse policy, in your own words the best one in existence, wasn't applied. Perhaps there weren't 2 witnesses to these acts, but I that doubt if someone is going to rape a child they would do so in front of witnesses. Fortunately for the victims, the police don't go by scriptural rules. If they suspect a crime has been committed they investigate, and if they find evidence that there has been a crime, they prosecute. That is why these men, and others, are in prison now, not because the elders reported the allegations, but because the victims did.
I would be interested to read your comments regarding these cases, if you have any, and please don't insult my intelligence by telling me not to believe everything I read in the papers.
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thirdwitness
I will say this. Before the Vicki Boer case went to court you would have been quoting her telling us how the elders told her not to go to the police or get professional help. The court said she was wrong. It would be interesting to see how these stories we here would end up when all the evidence was presented in court for everyone to see. So far the WT has been exhonerated in the court cases. Keep trying though and maybe you'll eventually win one where the elders really did disregard the WT's policy.