>OK, you are going to have to explain this to me. How does an understanding of the historical Sheol and Heaven as known to the ancient Isrealites make me liberal and opinionated? How is such an understanding unintelligent?
It means that you have accepted a position that cannot be proven. You think that the liberal scholarship is correct and it is not, nor is it consistent, nor can their views be proven. They begin with the intent to denigrate scripture and that presupposition is what drives them. You are probably a fan of the Jesus Seminar as well.
Rex
For Sh***ing One - Do I represent Christ Properly?
by jgnat 55 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Shining One
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Shining One
>You do not know my conversion story. You assume too much. My salvation came from direct intervention, the Holy Spirit whispered in my ear the saving knowledge that saved me from a life-threatening situation. In a very real way, I feel like the healed leper who came back to thank Jesus. I will be forever grateful, I will never forget what God did for me.
Praise God for that! Why not give Him the benefit of the doubt now instead of embracing so much of the liberal wackiness? You have a foundational experience. The premise is there (and it is not circular reasoning) for you to accept Jesus as written in the New Testament. There was not enough of a time period for a real myth to begin (that's why the libs like to date scripture so late in time) and the fact that so many people saw the risen Lord, knew Him and died for Him seals the argument. The next link is that it can be demonstrated that our Lord viewed the O.T. and particularly Genesis as historical. Since He viewed it as historical that presents you with a true crisis of faith: do you believe scripture or the presuppositions of the scientific world? Can you really believe that He would not protect scripture down through the ages? Quit listening to the doubters and look at the other views by people who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit! Presuppositional apologetics is even more effective than historical arguments to many Christians.
Science is on a dead end with their present clinging to the dead theory of evolution. It is their 'gospel' and it takes more faith to belive it than it does to accept the scriptural accounts. When the present generation of scientists can no longer set artificial limits to valid argumentation by use of their tenure and peer review pressure you will see some real scientific understandings occur.
People come here with their belief system almost completely undermined. There are plenty here who pounce on them and quickly remove any remaining faith. People leave here and are quickly forgotten. Who wins or loses arguments or debates will not be remembered long. Eternal souls won simply by giving people a reason to believe is all that is important in the end.
Rex -
nicolaou
You belittle the saving power of the gospel by denying that a person headed for hell (deathbed) can be brought to salvation by the Lord, using one bold enough to share His word.
You have given a message to those who are perishing that they can have it 'both ways'. You appplaud and encourage compromise, then when called on it you go off into semantics instead of dealing with the real issue: the eternal souls of those who would find more reasons not to believe because of your own belittling of the word of God.
Classic Shining One. Arrogance and supposition. Why is it all about death with you Rex?
the fact that so many people saw the risen Lord, knew Him and died for Him seals the argument.
Oh really? And just who are these people Rex? The disciples? Which ones? Who actually saw Jesus die and then come back to life. Oh I'm sure you'll quote some scripture or other but you'll completely miss the point as usual. If the Bible says that a dead man came back to life, that is a reason not to trust the Bible!
If I told you that I saw my roast turkey dinner reconstitute itself into a living bird and run off my dinner plate into the garden would you be inclined to believe me? Would you put much trust in anything else I had to say? What if I told you that a load of my mates were there and saw the whole thing happen, would that give me credibility?
Of course not.
Wake up Rex.
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nicolaou
People come here with their belief system almost completely undermined. There are plenty here who pounce on them and quickly remove any remaining faith.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
But you are correct, most people who come here have their Watchtower belief system undermined and that is surely a good thing. When error and fraud are overcome who would ever complain? So why do you object when some individuals like myself seek to continue this healing process and help people to realise that it is not just the Watchtower faith that is damaging but religious faith in all it's myriad disguises?
Who wins or loses arguments or debates will not be remembered long.
Agreed.
Eternal souls won simply by giving people a reason to believe is all that is important in the end.
I struggled to find a suitable way to express my feelings about this statement. I wanted to do it justice and provide a reasoned argument showing it's flaws and crooked reasoning. After much consideration I think I finally worked out how best to put my case.
Bullshit.
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Caedes
Audience, does my representation of Christianity encourage you to not to believe and further belittle the word of God?
I am as skeptical and aetheistic as anyone on this board, and whilst I might not agree with the basic concept It is always refreshing to see christians with a heart and soul, who understand Jesus' basic message of love. It's people like sinning one and his fundy ilk who turn people off from christianity.
Now I will get back to enjoying the six-nil thrashing you're dishing out to sinning one.
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Caedes
I struggled to find a suitable way to express my feelings about this statement. I wanted to do it justice and provide a reasoned argument showing it's flaws and crooked reasoning. After much consideration I think I finally worked out how best to put my case.
Bullshit.
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Sad emo
Audience, does my representation of Christianity encourage you to not to believe and further belittle the word of God?
No. My faith as a Christian is not in doubt (although I still have a few doctrinal issues to iron out) but someone who lives as a Christian has a better effect on me than someone bludgeoning me over the head with a Bible saying 'this is how it is'!
'Preach the Gospel wherever you go. Use words if neccessary' Francis of Assissi
I'd like to, if I may, put a question to both jgnat and shining one as I feel that your replies might begin to get to the heart of what seems to be the main 'disagreement' between you:
Jesus said 'No-one comes to the Father except through me' BUT is 'mainstream' Christianity (I use that term loosely!) and the Bible the ONLY way to come to Christ?
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kid-A
I will simply ignore sh***ing one's anti-evolution tangent....too pitifully lame to justify a response. However, having dealt with this poster for a very long time now, I will state that Rex represents the very antithesis of Christianity on every possible level. Rex continues to be a self-righteous, arrogant and judgemental fundy whilst flagrantly violating even the most basic principles of the Christian perspective. Indeed, there is no need to refute his nonsense with "empirical evidence" because his own actions identify him as an "anti-christian" by his continual violations of Christian philosophy:
"And why worry about a speck in your friend's eye when you have a log in your own? How can you think of saying, 'Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,' when you can't see past the log in your own eye?"
Matthew 7:3-4 (Jesus of Nazareth)"Stop judging others, and you will not be judged."
Matthew 7:1 (Jesus of Nazareth)"Love your enemies! Do good to them! Lend to them! And don't be concerned that they might not repay. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to the unthankful and to those who are wicked. You must be compassionate, just as your Father is compassionate."
Luke 6:25-26 (Jesus of Nazareth)What are the traits are dear sh***ting one continues to manifest? He has set himself up on a fundamentalist throne of shit to cast his illusory judgments on anything and anybody who contradicts his infantile and contrived worldviews. He JUDGES all those with whom he disagrees with, therefore violating the most basic tenet of Christianity. He spews hateful BILE towards those he considers "Liberals", "intellectuals" , "evolutionists", or any other member of his created universe of "Anti-Rex Infidels". He HATES his enemies on every level, insulting and belittling their opinions in order to prop up his pitiful sense of self-worth and mask his rampant insecurities. In so many ways, Rex still represents the textbook definition of a JW, hopelessly chained to black and white thinking patterns, ignorant of science, incapable of dealing rationally with conflicting opinions and worldviews and complete and utter fundamentalist myopia. Enjoy your life Rex, while you continue to stew in the acidic froth of your fundamentalist crock-pot.
AMEN!!!
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jgnat
Sh***ing One, do you distinguish between personal attacks and attacking ideas? I am careful to distinguish the two. Stop telling me what I think, calling me flippant, liberal, an appeaser, a fan of the "Jesus Seminar". All of these are judgement calls, and all are assumed from the barest evidence. None are true.
Second, let's make it clear that you have no intention of changing your position or defending your beliefs. Your circular reasoning goes something like this:
- You challenge my beliefs and call me a lukewarm Christian.
- I challenge your beliefs.
- You refuse to defend yourself using reason or logic, because you are a man of faith.
- So if we are not to use logic, what do we use?
- "The Bible" you say.
- I challenge your interpretation.
- You accuse me of liberal interpretation. I ask you how we can be assured that your interpretation is correct, and mine is flawed?
- You have said: "When I state my belief of a particular text is 'correct', backed up by the context of the passage and the invaluable insights of reliable Bible translators, that is a truth." http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/115282/2024905/post.ashx#2024905
- I said: You have already admitted that you selectively interpret scripture based on context and history.
- You: Again, this is another deflection. There are standards we use: acceptable rules governing hermeneutics‘, which is the interpretation of scripture. You must study each text and see how scripture itself interprets the text, look at the type of writing it is, who it was written to, who it was written by, ask questions like; is it literally acceptable or do we have a parable or metaphor that speaks of a specific teaching, and so on and so forth. Any first year seminary student learns this and you claim to be able to argue scripture?
- Me: So you are saying that my selection of scripture based on the two laws that Jesus said sums up ALL THE LAW OF THE PROPHETS, is inferior to yours? Why should I substitute the divine for a man-made construction? http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/97962/1686819/post.ashx#1686819
So the essence of your argument, stripped of the rhetoric and accusations, is that your experts are better than my experts, therefore you cannot be challenged in your interpretation. You are here to preach. That's it.
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jgnat
Thank you for your contribution, Sad-Emo (Others, too, but my typing fingers are getting tired).
Jesus said 'No-one comes to the Father except through me' BUT is 'mainstream' Christianity (I use that term loosely!) and the Bible the ONLY way to come to Christ?
I think not. Paul said that creation shouts of the existence of God. People can see it if they are looking. Acts 17.