Intolerance - a new breed of ex-JW

by LittleToe 260 Replies latest jw friends

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    Terry: Ponder: "The quality of being actual"

    Are you serious? Ponder "the quality of being actual?" Okay...done. Now what. Do you want my opinion of that? Would you like a definition for it? Was there some point to that request that you left out?

    Actual = existent, real as opposed to imagined.

    However, actual != tangible, demonstrably provable, verifiable scientifically, or any of a host of other things you imagine it to mean.

    Respect is real. Love is real. Hate is real. None of these are tangible. None are demonstrably provable. None are objectively verifiable scientifically. But they possess actuality. I know you don't like it. I bet it chafes. I am sure it throws monkey-wrenches into your vastly superior cogs and wheelworks. But, there it is, just the same. Science cannot experience my experiences, therefore my experiences—which are unquestionably objective for me—(if only subjective for anyone else) are not open to their dissection and cannot be objectified in a laboratory.

    AuldSoul

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    Stop a moment and read the above. Pause slowly and allow your eyes to focus on the part about "information presented as having objective reality" Further, ask yourself what the sentence means that says "something that has actual existence" Ponder: "The quality of being actual"
    Then, the discussion becomes all about removing road blocks and a tussle over semantics bloats into mind-numbing pedantry.

    By all means, stop being pedantic whenever you like. I will welcome the unexpected change in your previous course.

    AuldSoul

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    AuldSoul:

    The upshot of the statement you just agreed with is that we are not only each entitled to our own facts, we are each in possession of our own facts. Therefore, we each have our own reality. Therefore, we must tolerate the reality of each other or we remove all ethical basis for toleration of our own. And, I think there is someone in this thread who disagrees with that, repeatedly, with ridicule and scorn.

    No, not at all. I can tolerate your beliefs and accept that you see them as facts, and even that some of them may actually be facts, but I will not accept that you have your own reality. You don't. Reality exists independently of you and me. You may have more information about some aspects of reality than I do, but without some way of testing, it is impossible to tell whether your claim is factual or not.

    While you are happy to tolerate it, some are not happy to tolerate it. That's what these discussions are about, in my opinion. The fact that such knowledge is irrelevant to you does not make such knowledge irrelevant, nor does it mean such knowledge must never impact you in any way. It does. Our perceptions, our facts, our reality affects the perceptions, facts, and reality of others.

    The way such "knowledge" affects me is not in any way based on whether it is factual. I could be stopped in the street by a Jehovah's Witness who claims a particular kind of knowledge, or by a Raelian who claims a different kind. The effects that such beliefs have on a person - and indirectly on me - do not depend on whether those beliefs are actually true.

    Perceptions are not facts.

    Ridiculing such a belief would run counter to your acknowledgement in your latest post.

    Not at all. It's a belief I find ridiculous because it is horrendously unlikely given the demonstrable facts at our disposal, and there is no evidence for it. Holding an implausible belief for no good reason is a ridiculous thing to do, and I'm not afraid to say so.

    The reality is that you do not have the other persons set of facts, because we are each entitled to our own.

    No we're not. Facts are facts, regardless of who has them. Someone may be in possession of facts that I do not have. Unless they can share those facts with me in a convincing way, there is absolutely no discernible difference to me whether they really have facts or are making something up. None at all. If there is no way of determining whether a statement is true or false, it is, at best, irrelevant.

    The reality is that you cannot read the other person's mind, you cannot experience anything, not even color, from the perspective of that person.

    And yet the colour of a particular object is a fact independent of people's perception. You may see red the way I see blue (whatever that might mean) but something is red only if it reflects light of a particular wavelength (around 650nm if memory serves). You may claim that your perception of red is different from mine; I will dismiss it as irrelevant. If you claim that a red object is really blue, I will tell you flat out you are wrong. In all cases, I will tolerate your right to be wrong or irrelevant, but will not pretend that you are otherwise.

    The reality is that if you were that person you would have the same belief they have, because the combination of genetics and experiences that make that individual who they are and shape their reality would be your set of genetics and experiences.

    If a circle was a square it would have four corners. So what?

    Therefore, ridicule is intolerance. As is scorn.

    Not at all. Ridicule is simply the expression of an opinion. One thing I think we can all agree on is that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I have the right to express my opinion, and to judge people on the basis of their opinions. I do not have the right to cause harm to people simply because they hold ridiculous opinions, but I certainly have the right to laugh at them.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    Ridicule is simply the expression of an opinion.

    (1) Ridicule is not simply the expression of opinion. Ridicule expresses disdain for an opinion, and frequently for the holder of an opinion, which the ridiculer finds no reasonable basis for holding. This does not mean that there is no reasonable basis, it simply means the ridiculer doesn't have one. Enter the realm of subjective experience determining our view of reality. "Fact" has specific meaning outside the realm of scientifically demonstrable objective reality.

    (2) Anyone who believes something so stupid should off themselves and free up some oxygen for the rest of us, we'll obviously make better use of it.

    Note the difference between those two. The former is the expression of an opinion. The latter is ridicule. Ridicule is not tolerance, it is intolerance.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Terry:ROFL

    Passive aggressive? Did you even bother to look that one up after you read it on this mornings "phrase for a day" sheet of toilet roll?

    For someone who sets so much store by definitions you've demonstrated in inordinate desire to create plenty of your own. Didier called you on your definition of "mystic", AuldSoul called you on your definition of "fact", and others have been demonstrated as wrong, also.

    If one person holds their own definition of a word, in objection to the majority, are they living in a factual reality or their own subjective one?

    Funky:
    I concur, as I did earlier in this thread: "God" is not an objective "fact". I would thereby distinguish between replicable facts and subjective experience. The latter might be incontrovrsible evidence to the individual, but they aren't going to convince anyone else with it.

    The point at which it becomes more solid is when a large number of folks express experiencing something similar, though since it's still anecdotal and not demonstrable in the physical world, IMHO it still doesn't meet the criteria of "fact.

    I'll also elaborate on something I stated on a thread way back, that there's a difference between the actuality of reality and our subjective realisation of it. Each of us hold our own subjective model of our environment in our heads, but that doesn't detract from the actual objective reality that we are individually interpretting.

    To cut a long story short, I'm agreeing with ya

    Ridicule is simply the expression of an opinion. One thing I think we can all agree on is that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I have the right to express my opinion, and to judge people on the basis of their opinions. I do not have the right to cause harm to people simply because they hold ridiculous opinions, but I certainly have the right to laugh at them.

    I also agree with this, however doing so would not be deemed polite. It's possible to exert our right of expression without demonstrating intolerance, and in fact you usually (albeit not always, but neither do I) achieve exactly this balance, while bringing a healthy dose of scepticism to a discussion

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    FunkyDerek,

    Let me make this as simple as I know how: Do you love anyone, anyone at all? Do you respect anyone?

    Can you cllinically prove that you love someone? Does your lack of objective clinical proof make your love less factual? Your esteem?

    A fact is something that is actual, that exists, that is real. There is no requirement for you to ever express your love for you to actually (factually) love someone. But how you make someone else believe something that only actually exists in your head is something you will have to figure out on your own, I'm afraid. There is no good "Clinically Proving Love for Dummies" book as far as I know. If you find one, pass the tip along.

    Not at all. It's a belief I find ridiculous because it is horrendously unlikely given the demonstrable facts at our disposal, and there is no evidence for it. Holding an implausible belief for no good reason is a ridiculous thing to do, and I'm not afraid to say so.

    Stop me where I get this wrong: (1) You acknowledge you do not have all possible demonstrable facts at our disposal. (2) You ackowledge there is no evidence for it, which I will translate into what I believe is a more correct presentation, you acknowledge you do not possess any evidence for it (see Point 1). (3) You acknowledge that determination of the validity of reason for any belief is subjective. (4) You acknowledge that your subjective perception is that a certain belief has no plausible reason. (5) Based solely on your subjective assessment of the basis for a belief you are comfortable expressing ridicule of a belief.

    Wow. No wonder the whole world is at each others throats quite a lot of the time.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • Terry
    Terry
    This is why eyewitness testimony is incredibly unreliable as evidence. Testimonials of any variety, for that matter.

    Thank you for your testimony!

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe
    This is why eyewitness testimony is incredibly unreliable as evidence. Testimonials of any variety, for that matter.

    And yet in a court of law...

  • Terry
    Terry
    Scorn and ridicule are not valid criticism, constitute intolerance, and remove all ethical basis for tolerance of "facts" expressed by the ridiculer

    Noooooo....

    I responded because I wanted to give moral reasons why certain things cannot be tolerated. I gave examples. Remember?

    Here is my first post on this subject in which I inject the philosophical reasons one cannot tolerate certain things and why those things might require ridicule.

    Please try again to read my post for what it says and in the exact context it is presented.

    It seems to me, from my perspective of sitting here on a remote Scottish island, that there are a fair number of folks who may have left an intolerant and generalising religion but forgot to leave those attitudes with it.

    It is a matter of real world alternatives.

    We have two:

    1.Evasion

    2.Moral responsiblity

    The moral neutrality you reccomend is a mirror of JW neutrality about the evil empires who make war.

    There are two sides to every issue of importance: one is right and the other is wrong--but--the MIDDLE is ALWAYS EVIL

    What you fail to notice philosophically is this:

    Moral cowardice is fear of upholding the good BECAUSE it is good, and fear of opposing the evil BECAUSE it is evil.

    Is morality inconsequential? Then, your view has merit.]

    Neutrality is the common symptom of intellectual appeasers.

    No Brute ever came to power and stayed there without the appeasers making it possible by failure to condemn them directly by opposing them with enough force to gain the attention of the world at large.

    Moral agnosticism corrupts and disintegrates the culture and man's character.

    THE PRIME OBJECTIVE of human consciousness is identifying the good and the bad. SURVIVAL depends on it.

    if you are willing to declare that neither good nor evil may expect anything of you (by way of praise or condemnation) ask yourself this:

    Who do you betray and who do you encourage?

  • Terry
    Terry
    Respect is real. Love is real. Hate is real.

    No. You are conceptually confused.

    Respect, Love and hate are not real. They are attitudes and emotions caused by values. The result of those attitudes and values and emotions in and of themselves are subjective. The actions which might follow from them, however, will be real.

    Can't believe you are so confused. Really.

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