Does the Rainbow Covenant Disprove the Flood?

by Severus 108 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Narkissos

  But can you tell me if these legends were after the genesis story of the rainbow?

  They are obviously much earlier, inasmuch as the Genesis stories in general offer an Israelite reworking of several myths which can be traced to distinct origins (Mesopotamian or Levantine for instance).

  I would think it would be hard to date as we don't really know in what year the genesis account was written. I know some will say a few thousand years ago but I myself am an old earth believer. I think Genesis was written much earlier.

  The datation of Genesis is quite independent of the issue of "old vs. young earth". Most of the stories are now dated from the 8th century onward, the final redaction of Genesis being clearly post-exilic.

  Also, Narkissos, where do you get your information about the ancient legends that seem to show the same stories as the bible?

  Both the Enuma Elish and the Gilgamesh Epic can be read in English translation online.

  http://www.crivoice.org/enumaelish.html

  http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/ (see tablet XI for the Flood story).

  I'm not the best source for English books but I can recommend Mark Smith's Early History of God for a general approach of OT literary sources.
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  foreword

  I totally agree with the original poster. How can you have a rainbow if it had stopped raining for days.

  It's always some type of miracle if you can't explain it, right?. Something supernatural had to occur. Otherwise, the facts just don't add up. 4000 years ago, when this flood supposedly happened, is not a long time if you think about it. The whole ecosystem drastically changed and we have absolutely no evidence of it? I just don't prescribe to that kind of reasoning anymore, the bible says to verify all the facts and then make a decision, that's exactly what I do. Sorry no flood occured 4000 years ago.

  God said and it is written are just not good enough for me anymore.
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  cyberdyne systems 101

  One question I could never answer re: the flood, by a study, was how did the animals cross the continents? Say a kangaroo? How come they only live on one continent? Did they go back to where they came from? How did they get there? The only answer I could find from the society was continental ridges - which sounds very far fetched to me.

  CS 101
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  foreword

  Good point CS,

  Continental ridges? Well I guess for some time, the plates were so close to each other that the kangaroo could jump from one to the other, and he chose Australia. Maybe Noah built little bridges over ridges and directed the animals to it's respective continent before they got too far apart. Noah died and the sons of his sons took over the bridge building family business until it became unlucrative.
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  james_woods

  OK - so the real question here was: Does the Rainbow Covenant Disprove the Flood?

  I say you cannot disprove myth that certain people choose to believe irregardless. How would I go about disproving area 51 and Roswell?

  However, rainbow covenant does raise some startling questions...just on the physical science side -

  Did god change the laws of diffraction just after the flood? There really was enough condensed water droplets or ice crystals in the upper atmosphere to actually obliterate the sun completely? All over the earth? For about 1500 years +++ since Adam? What would such a thing do to plant growth and atmospheric pressures? What would it do to the climate? Could the atmosphere actually sustain that much cloud cover for that long? If god had to maintain the canopy outside natural law, then it sort of looks like he was planning to flood man sometime from the get-go and was just holding back his water, so to speak...

  And then, there is a moral/religious side:

  Why did god destroy all those people at once - and, then immediately promise to never do it again (at least not by water)? If he wanted to get those bad angels, this was bad strategy...even WT says they just dematerialized and floated back up to the bad side of heaven. (OK - he got the Nethinim and their rape victim mothers, but they were the innocent parties in this sex crime). Was he admitting it was all a mistake? Were they really that much worse than people now? (well, manifestly not - we are going to get nuked at big A in a few years r.e.WT ) What's the big deal about killing by water deluge - if you are planning to later kill by fire and pestilence, then this rainbow covenant idea is all kind of a big hoax. (I.E. - rainbow means next time will be worse) I think I would just as soon drown as get roasted or succumb to the black plague.

  For me, it is sort of a grand morality play as myth which tries to teach the danger of unnatural societal behavior - having implications on common human law, environmental science, etc. today. And, maybe inspired by some localized flood...other than that, too many problems for a literal interpretation.

  James
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  foreword

  (I.E. - rainbow means next time will be worse) I think I would just as soon drown as get roasted or succumb to the black plague.

  LOL

  Next time the sky will be red as a sign he regretted frying people alive and he won't do it again, I mean by water, and now fire. But he'll find another way....
• 

  Terry

  
  
  God wants things to be a certain way.....HIS way.
  

  
  
  God gives man "free" agency to avoid doing things God's way.
  

  
  
  God then deals with the result.
  

  
  
  That, my friends, is the actual story synopsis of the entire bible!
  

  
  
  The rest is process.
  

  
  
  As we begin to view the process we discover and define God through His actions over time.
  

  
  
  A logical question appears: Why doesn't God get his own way immediately? Why is there a time period between wanting things a certain way....................................
  

  
  
  ............................................................................................................................and having things BE that way?
  

  
  
  In that space we have GOD'S PLAN.
  

  
  
  The plan is to allow humans to do whatever they want until God intervenes.
  

  
  
  All well and good. plot.
  

  
  
  But, if God intervenes to set matters straight---WHY AREN'T MATTERS STRAIGHT FROM THEN ON??
  

  
  
  The Flood story raises this issue.
  

  
  
  God actually takes steps to STOP wickedness by destroying it. He selects the righteous and begins anew. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE??
  

  
  
  THINGS IMMEDIATELY GO AWRY
  even after God has intervened to set matters straight!
  

  
  
  Nobody raises this point for discussion.
  

  
  
  The flood solved no problem at all in the long run. It was an extermination.
  

  
  
  
  
• 

  lovelylil

  Thanks Narkissos,

  I am going to read all the information you gave me links for. Lilly
• 

  lovelylil

  I understand that some other ancient people also believe in flood stories but I would like to make this point that I heard some others make in the past. The fact that other peoples have a flood story can add weight to the fact that the flood story is true.

  If you are a bible believer than you realize that ALL the ancient civilizations would have had common ancestors in the survivors of the flood of Noahs day. When people migrated through out the earth, they took this story with them. That is why they are so similiar in details. Now some of these ancestors it seems have recorded the story of the flood on tablets prior to the story we have in the bible being written down on scrolls but that does not mean the bible writers borrowed the story from other earlier cultures. It can simply mean the same event is retold and re-written at a later time. But in fact, it is still the same event. The changing of the names of the hero does not bother me as names can easily get lost in the translation.

  Also, I do not think there is conclusive proof as to the exact time periold Noah would have lived in. I know there are a lot of theories but we don't really have a birth certificate now do we? We know Noah did not write this story so who did, and how long after Noah died was it written?

  Here is a website that answers some of the Qs about the flood such as could all the animals fit in the ark? was the flood local or global?

  http://www.gotquestions.org/Flood-accounts.html

  I am not saying what I believe at this time but I think it is important to have an open mind and to look at evidence both ways before making up your mind. I do think sometimes we tend to over-evaluate evidence and try to prove theories either way instead we should look at it more simply. There have been hundreds (probably more) books written for/against the flood. As well as other things mentioned in the bible.

  I say, let each believe what he/she has resolved in their own mind.

  Thanks again Narkissos, that information in the links is very interesting, I learned something new today. Peace be with you.
• 

  Leolaia

  On Yahweh's bow, see the following:

  "You uncovered your bow, you called for many arrows. Selah. You split the earth with rivers; the mountains saw you and writhed. Torrents of water swept by; the deep roared and lifted its waves on high. Sun and moon stood still in the heavens at the glint of your flying arrows, at the lightning of your flashing spear" (Habbakuk 3:9-11).

  Compare Deuteronomy 32:23: "I will hurl disasters on them, and on them I will spend all my arrows", and especially Psalm 77:17-18: "The clouds poured down water, and sky thundered, your arrows darted out. Your thunder crashed as it rolled, your lightning lit up the world". The closest parallel with Canaanite texts is Psalm 29:3-10:

  "The voice of Yahweh over the waters! Yahweh over multitudinous waters! The voice of Yahweh in power! The voice of Yahweh in splendor! The voice of Yahweh shatters the cedars, Yahweh shatters the cedars of Lebanon, making Lebanon leap like a calf, Sirion like a young wild bull. The voice of Yahweh sharpens lightning shafts! The voice of Yahweh sets the wilderness shaking, Yahweh shakes the wilderness of Kadesh. The voice of Yahweh sets the terebinths shuddering, stripping the forests bare. The God of glory thunders. In his palace everything cries 'Glory!' Yahweh sat enthroned on the Flood, Yahweh sits enthroned as a king forever".

  Note that the "voice of Yahweh" (= thunder) is mentioned seven times. Compare with Ugaritic texts about Baal:

  "Baal sits like the base of a mountain, Hadad settles on the ocean, in the midst of his divine mountain Saphon, in the midst of his mountain of victory. Seven lightning flashes he has, and eight bundles of thunder, with a shaft of lightning in his right hand...I [Baal] understand the lightning which the heavens do not know, come and I shall reveal it in the midst of my divine mountain Saphon, in the sanctuary on the mountain of my inheritance...Let Baal set his rope in the heavens. Let the Rider of the Clouds kindle his lightning, I shall bury war in the earth, I shall set strife in the dust...For seven years Baal shall fail, for eight, the Rider of the clouds! No dew, no rain, no welling up of the deeps, no goodness of Baal's voice" (KTU 1.101 R 1-4, 1.3 iv 17-20, 26-29, 1.19 i 43-45; cf. 2 Samuel 1:21: "Neither dew, nor rain, nor rising up of the two deeps").