There is a short article in the latest Awake I received (I think Apr 15). The title I think was Did Jesus Really Die on a Cross.
I just skimmed over it the other day - let me know if you want a scanned copy of it.
BB
Trying to find cross v. stake topics
by Sad emo 42 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Sad emo
Thanks Bumble Bee - I just got that copy of Awake on Sunday and hadn't checked what is in it yet!
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no one
Emo,
Best wishes with your research.
After Leolaia posted her article, I got to thinking (Thanks Leo. Your topics always force me into research and thinking harder about a subject.) about how I could possibly approach JWs in a logical manner concerning the cross vs.stake issue. So - I tried imagining myself as a Roman executioner in charge of the duties of crucifixion and all that it would entail.
Let's assume for a sec that Christ was to be executed on a stake. And that he is about 6 feet tall. With his hands above his head and his legs stretched out so that he is nailed through the top of his feet, he should be nearly 8 feet long. If he was nailed through the heel (with legs wrapped around the side of the pole) and the legs were bent, maybe a foot or so shorter.
There was an earthquake at his death severe enough that it tore the temple curtain and threw bodies out of their graves, but the 'stake' with the weight of Christ up in the air did not topple. So - the stake should be at least 3, if not 4 feet in the ground for stability.
Next, people were able to observe the crucifixion from afar and the Roman who tried to give him something to drink had to do so with a reed. So - he was up in the air possibly 3 or 4 feet off the ground.
There was a sign posted, not only above his head, but (as per JW lore) also above his upstretched hands; adding more length to this pole.
And to my knowledge, there were no kilns for drying wood in those days to make it lighter by moisture removal (Warning. They may have been drying their wood. I've just never read anything on it.) The most populous tree in the region was pine.
So - how much does a non-kiln-dried pine post of approximately 6 inches in diameter and about 15 to 16 feet (3' in the ground, 3' to Christ's feet, 7-8' for his body length, 1' for a sign above him) long weigh? Call your local lumberyard.
And after it's all over, someone has to pull this pole up out of a hole and transport not only it, but all poles from the days' executions back to the storage area for the next batch of convicted to carry them.
I often thought about this dirt fill-in when the WT described in the "Greatest Man' book how Christ was hoisted, pole and all and dropped into the hole. I can't see how this could be done without pushing dirt into the hole when you pushed the pole to the edge of the hole to be dropped in. Perhaps they hoisted the pole by some sort of crane device to avoid this problem, but that would mean more equipment for something that shouldn't take a lot of men and effort to accomplish. I suppose the same could be said of a crew needing a ladder and pulley system to hoist a man nailed to the crossbeam up into the air and having to climb back up to get him down. However, I found that easier than trying to lift a man, pole and all out of the ground together or else climbing a ladder to pull nails out of a victim and then using some sort of pulley system to lower him to the ground.
It just always seemed very inefficient to me. You pull a post up out the ground and dirt is sure to fall in on it. Do it enough times (and the Romans were busy, busy when it came to crucifixion) and your're going to have to redig your hole eventually to regain your lost depth. I believe I'd have been making a suggestion to my superior about an easier, more effecient way that accomplishes the same goal.
Always seemed simpler, lighter, and more effecient to carry the crossbeam rather the the whole 4 yards.
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RubaDub
This is one of those topics that there is no definite answer to. And yet, many of us JWs beat the thing to death.
Sort of like arguing whether the prophesy of the "Wheel within a wheel" was aluminum or alloy.
Rub a Dub
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Triumph
Will this topic ever be resolved? It seems to me that a cross is formed by attaching a crossbeam to a stake; the result is crucifixion. That would be the case whether the convicted is tied/nailed to the crossbeam before it is affixed to the stake or after. One of many good links on the topic is http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/crucifixion.html
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Sad emo
Welcome to the board Triumph
Thanks for the link, I've just read it and it is very interesting.
I don't understand how this article confirms your acceptance of the 'traditional' crucifixion method though (ie crossbeam) as it also outlines the 'stake' method.
Fascinating that each method would bring about a different cause of death too.
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Sheri
Bumble Bee:
The book that was quoted by Parsons is online at gutenberg.org, not very long but interesting read. Basically he said it can not be proved one way or the other if Christ was impaled on stake or cross. Then goes on with history of the cross and other interesting opinions that do not match JW beliefs.
Peace,
Sheri
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Atlantis
http://www.catholicapologetics.net/jw_cross.htm Jehovah's Witnesses use of Crosses
Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus Christ was tortured on a stake as opposed to "Christendom's" belief that Jesus Christ was crucified upon a cross.
"After Jesus had been passed from one to another, the Roman governor Pontius Pilate, on the insistence of the religiously inspired mob, took the line of least resistance and sentenced Jesus to death. As a consequence, Jesus died in disgrace on a stake, and his body was placed in a tomb." ("Mankind's Search for God", page 254)
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society goes to great pains throughout many of it's publications, to show the diligent bible student that it's translation to torture stake is the correct one. The Watchtower (Feb. 1 1968) Says:
"True Christians NEVER REVERED THE CROSS OR REGARDED IT AS A SYMBOL OF TRUE CHRISTIANITY. Many persons contend that the cross is used by the churches because Christ died on one. That is what the churches say, BUT IT IS NOT THE TRUTH." (emphasize mine)
The Witnesses will argue that the cross is a "Pagan symbol", they will say that possessing honoring and wearing crosses are acts of "idolatry" The Watchtower (Aug. 15, 1987 pg. 23-24) says:
"Bear in mind, how the cross has been used down through history as a object of pagan worship and of superstitious awe, could wearing a cross, even as a ornament, be harmonized with the admonition of the apostle Paul at 1 Corinthians 10:14 ‘Therefore, my beloved ones, flee from idolatry’?"
Has the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society always held that Jesus Christ was tortured on a stake? Apparently not!! We know for a fact that for at least fifty-seven years [from 1872 up to 1929] the Jehovah’s Witnesses revered the cross in there publications and regarded it as a symbol of true Christianity. We also know that the Bible the Witnesses printed and used for the first 78 years since Russell founded the Cult, promoted the belief in Christ’s death on a cross. The following is broken in to two sections:
Images of the Cross Found in Used by Watchtower Society:
The Term "Cross" Found in the Pre_1950 Watchtower Printings of the Bible:
IMAGES OF THE CROSS FOUND IN USED BY WATCHTOWER SOCIETY:
1907
1907-1911
1910
1911
1912
1914
1914
1917
1917
1921
1921
1921 edition of the "The Harp of God" by "Judge" Rutherford. The "Judge" was the successor to Russell and the second President of the Watchtower Society. The opening page if the 1921 edition of the "The Harp of God" A image of the Crucifixion of Christ found on page 114 There is a nice poem honoring the Cross of Christ on page 141 THE POEM HONORING THE CROSS:
"In the cross of Christ I glory, Tow’ring o’er the wreck of time; All the light of sacred story Gather round its head sublime." ("The Harp of God" Page 141)
A EXAMPLE OF THE STATEMENTS HONORING THE CROSS:"The ransom-price was provided at the cross. The cross of Christ is the great pivotal truth of the divine arrangement, from which radiate the hopes of men." ("The Harp of God" Page 141)
19281928 Revised Edition of the "The Harp of God" by "Judge" Rutherford The opening page if the 1928 edition of the "The Harp of God" A image of the Crucifixion of Christ on page 113 1928
1929
The 1929 Edition of "Creation" by "Judge" Rutherford The opening page if the 1929 edition of the "Creation" A color image of the Crucifixion of Christ on page 265 A nice color image of the Cross of Christ on page 336 1930
1943
1993
THE TERM "CROSS" FOUND IN THE PRE-1950 WATCHTOWER PRINTINGS OF THE BIBLE:
In the years before 1969 the Interlinear of choice for the Jehovah's Witnesses was the Emphatic Diaglott. Benjamin Wilson authored and self-published the "Emphatic Diaglott" in the 1860s, the interlinear Bible translation which was so essential to Watchtower theology that Wilson's printing plates were obtained after his death. for many year the Witnesses printed there own editions of this Bible, this is one of them. The opening page of a 1942 Jehovah's Witnesses printing of the Emphatic Diaglott. In this scan are some example of the use of the term "Cross". Look at Mark 15: 24,25, 30, 32, and in the footnote for verse 24. This scan is of the definition of the word "Cross" found in the "dictionary" in the back of the Emphatic Diaglott. We note that it describes a Cross as a "T", " t ", or a "X" J. F. Rutherford (the second president of the Watchtower Bible and Tract society) said this about the Emphatic Diaglott: "The Emphatic Diaglott is one of the purest translations of the New Testament. It is translated from the original Greek. The Vatican Manuscript was chiefly used in its preparation, reference being had also to the Sinaitic and other manuscripts. It expresses the thought in modern language and greatly aids the Greek and English student in studying the New Testament. (Creation; 1927; p. 119)
THE KJV:In the years before 1950 the Bible that was accepted, printed, used, promoted, and distributed by the Jehovah Witnesses (JW) was the King James Version (KJV). The printing arm of the Jehovah Witnesses (the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) published many editions of this popular Protestant Bible The opening page of a Pre-1950 Jehovah's Witnesses printing of the King James Version. We can see the use of the word "Cross" in Matt.27:32, 35, 40 J. F. Rutherford had this to say about the King James Version: "Doubtless there has never been a more masterful and perfect English publication than the Authorized Version of the Bible." (Creation; 1927; p. 117)
THE ASVIn the years between 1944 and the late nineteen seventies one of the Bible that was accepted, Printed, used, promoted, and distributed by the Jehovah Witnesses (JW) was the American Standard Version (ASV). The printing arm of the Jehovah Witnesses (the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) published many editions of this Protestant Bible. . . The opening page of a Pre-1950 Jehovah's Witnesses printing of the American Standard Version. We can see the use of the word "Cross" in Matt.27:40 .J. F. Rutherford had this to say about the American Standard Version: "The commission of reviser who prepared the Revised Version from 1870 forward had access to these manuscripts, however. The ancient manuscripts were studied, together with the various versions; and the greatest possible care and means were employed to bring forth a Bible expressing, as nearly as possible, the thought expressed by the original manuscripts" (Creation; 1927; p. 118)
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