to put is simply. Jesus is the Salvation manufacturer and the JW Org. is the dealer (according to them). The Org tells you can't get the new 2006 Salvation unless you go to the dealer. The dealer is marking the price way up and the financing they offer has too high an interest rate. The argument is, does Jesus who makes the Salvation need or want a dealer?
Comments You Will Not Year at the 3-12-06 WT Study(Witness/Nations)
Thanks Carla, I'm quite busy today, and tried to do a quick search - but I see you're on it - thanks
I think you're right about other things as well.
It doesn't matter what the WT says - their claims of being THE org etc. Their false prophecy record and other deceptions puts them in a different group.
So back to what the Paul said to Timothy.... the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL men, especially believers.
Scout said: ...would result in god denying salvation to that person, so JWs believe that rejection of what they consider to be the true religion, would result in god denying that person salvation.
What part of ALL men is not ALL MEN?
How does the WT get away with deciding who will be saved, by what means, what God thinks, what God should or should not do, judging others, judging themselves as worthy?
WT = God, members stick up for God = members stick up for WT
Since I've never been a member of the WT group, I don't have any lingering loyalties. The minute false prophecies or other lies are evident their credibility is no longer a concern. (Deut don't be afraid of FPs verse)
Carla: Are you looking at those WT quotes according to your own pre-suppositions rather than reading whats actually there? If JWs say that they are offering salvation, then why in 22 years as JW did I NEVER get that impression? At the risk of repeating myself, JWs believe that being part of the true religion is necessary for salvation in the same way that they believe that being honest is necessary for salvation. Just as they believe that it isn't the honesty itself that gives them salvation, so they believe that it ISN'T the true religion itself that gives them salvation.
How could anyone in their right mind believe that a religion can save anyone? How can one human save another? Its ludicrous. When Paul says to Timothy: "Thou shalt both SAVE thyself, and them that hear thee." ( 1Tim 4:16 ) are you going to accuse Paul or Timothy of claiming to be able to offer salvation to people ( rather than god himself )? Paul is merely saying that Timothy can offer some spiritual help to people, which, if acted upon, would result in GOD saving those people. JWs take exactly the same view.
I bet you're as tired of this as me, Carla. Best wishes by the way!
Scout - one question if I may.
Why does the WT disfellowship someone who doesn't want to be a part of their group any longer?
and that those who are df'd are doomed to die since they are not on the "ark"?
someone other than God makes that decision and instructs others that it is so.
Scout, are you just giving me a hard time? Jw's and honesty? really? your just pulling my leg here aren't you? Who is entitled to truth in your world?
God’s Word commands: “Speak truth each of you with his neighbor” (Eph. 4:25). This command, however, does not mean that we should tell everyone who asks us all he wants to know. We must tell the truth to one who is entitled to know, but if one is not so entitled we may be evasive. (Watchtower, June 1, 1960, pp. 351-352)
Lies are untruths told for selfish reasons and which work injury to others. Satan told a lie to Eve that worked great harm to her and all the human race. Ananias and Sapphira told lies for selfish reasons. But hiding the truth, which he is not entitled to know, from an enemy does not harm him, especially when he would use such information to harm others who are innocent … So in time of spiritual warfare it is proper to misdirect the enemy by hiding the truth. It is done unselfishly; it does not harm anyone; on the contrary, it does much good. (pp. 284-285).
Carla: I'm surprised that you raise the point about 'evasiveness' as you're obviously familiar with the Bible.
When Rahab ( later presented by Paul as as an example to Christians - Heb 11:31 ) was asked by the representatives of the King of Jericho, where she had hidden the Israelite spies, told them that the spies had left her home, and that she didn't know where they were, when really she had hidden them in her roof ( Joshua 2: 3-6 ). This is 'evasiveness', and is the kind of thing JWs would use, when, as in the above scenario, they are addressing enemies who want to bring harm to them, or their brothers and sisters.
Its Scriptural precedents like this that JWs follow, in the extremely rare instances where the above sort of scenario is faced ( notice that the Bible doesn't condemn Rahab for her evasiveness, rather she is put forward as an example for Christians to follow - James 2:25 ). Unsurprisingly, in my 22 years as a Witness I never came across a situation where I had to be 'evasive' ( Britain is a mature, multi-party, liberal democracy - unlike ancient Jericho ).
If you're calling the honesty of JWs into question, I can only say that I found the JWs I knew to be scrupulously honest, to the point of, if they found something of value, they would hand it in to the police, rather than take the view of 'finders keepers, losers weepers'. Obviously, there are always going to be people within JWs who aren't honest, but I suspect that applies to every single religious organization on earth, even your own, dare I say?
awww, phooey! where'd the rest of my post go?! I had many quotes where the wt encourages and justifies lying. As for jw's being honest please don't. I live with one. They flat out told him to lie about jw's and lie about his where abouts when with them to me. I have heard this from other ubm's as well. I have seen too much within the org to ever convince me that the word honesty and jw should ever go together. I have lived it.
Because Rahab lied to protect Jewish men that gives justification to lie when it suits you? With this rationalization then, because there is incidence in the bible of incest, that's ok too. After all it's in the bible. How about chopping up your dead gang raped mistress and sending her body parts to your relatives? That ok too?
Who is the father of lies?
As far as the quote, 'come to jehovah's organization for salvation', I still cannot see any other way to take this than how it is written. According to the jw's we cannot understand the bible without them, apparently we cannot understand their literature without a jw being present either. What other way is there to take a statement like that? If I said, 'come to me for salvation', wouldn't that look like I was the one offering salvation? It is tiresome when jw's seem to be constantly saying, 'we didn't mean it that way, you misunderstand it really means...., what that is really saying is....' and so on and so on. If they claim to speak for God don't you think they should be clear and responsible for what they say? Is God really that inept He can't say what he means? That he must keep changing his mind because he didn't get it right the first time? It is men who keep changing their minds. Who rationalize away bad behavior and blame it on God. shameful.
I'd have to agree with those that are saying the WTBTS boasts in itself to the extent of promising salvation for obedience to the book publishing corporation . They replace everything with the book publishing corporation , if your life is not centered around the book publishing corporation you are not worthy of salvation . They are so judgemental they will condemn everybody just because they don't believe in the book publishing corporation .
I also disagree with the justification attempt made at lying for the book publishing corporation .
Exactly right Carla.
Get ready for this years memorial pep talk - Jesus is NOT your mediator - the WT society is!
- thats right!
You might not have ever heard of this before, but this man made Mecca corporation from Brooklyn New York, IS your mediator - the middle men, your legal rep before god, the substitutes for Christ.
(WT quotes temp n/a thanks to Quotes' embarrassing website)
(sorry no bible quotes)
You got that right will power . You reject the covenant with christ because you've made one with the book publishing corporation that replaces it . It's really disgusting what they do at that memorial.