Comments You Will Not Year at the 3-12-06 WT Study(Witness/Nations)

by blondie 54 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  scout575

  Will Power: I'm an agnostic now, but I was surprised to read your posting earlier. You quote from the Watchtower article where it says: "By doing so, we will save ourselves and those who listen to us." You describe this statement as the "ultimate in boastful arrogance aswell as about as anti-Christian as you can get. This is their self-serving message. They prop themselves up in the holy place, thats disgusting."

  In making the above statement, The Watchtower is paraphrasing Paul's words to Timothy, where he says: "For in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." ( 1 Tim 4:16 ) Was Paul's statement 'the ultimate in boastful arrogance aswell as about as anti-Christain as you can get'? Was his a 'self-serving message'? Did he 'prop himself up in the holy place'? Was that 'disgusting'?
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  jgnat

  Perhaps, scout, the disgusting part is elevating the words of the Watchtower to divine.
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  scout575

  jgnat: I was surprised that the WTS is so heavily cricitcized by Will Power, for merely paraphrasing the Bible. Bible writers themselves paraphrase earlier parts of the Bible ( Jude 18; 2 Peter 3:3 ), and it seems odd that anyone who believes in the Bible would find that objectionable.

  The paraphrase that the WTS used in the article, was based on 1 Tim 4:16, and can quite innocuously be applied to the efforts of Christians to preach and teach. If JWs are to be criticized for that paraphrase, then to be consistent, the writer of 1 Tim 4:16 should also be criticized.

  The WTS harmless use of 1 Tim 4:16, is in sharp contrast to the very misleading use of Scripture seen in the gospels. The writer of Matthew even appeals to a so-called Messianic prohecy that doesn't exist. He portrays Jesus' upbringing in Nazareth as having been prophesied in the Old Testament, with the words: "And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth; that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene." ( Matt 2:23 ) The fact is, the Old Testament prophets don't anywhere say 'he shall be called a Nazarene'. I'm sure we can all imagine the outrage of Christian posters, on this site, if the WTS were to follow in Matthew's footsteps, and be as blatantly disingenuous as him.
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  Will Power

  Thank you Jgnat. and scout.
  
  Using one line in timothy to back up a WT statement is 1/2 my problem with WT utterances.
  
  Begin the 4th chapter of 1Timothy, by the time you get to verse 16 it is evident that the spirit is moving within -
  not someplace in New York state.
  .....
  3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the Truth.
  4 For everything created by god is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; (blood to save a life?)
  6 good servant of Christ Jesus....
  10 fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL men, especially of believers.
  16 preserve in these things...
  
  wp
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  scout575

  Will Power: You say: "Using one line in Timothy to back up a Watchtower statement is half my problem with WT utterances." The practice of using one line from the Bible to support Christian utterances is seen throughout the New Testament, ie: Romans 5:17; 7;7; 8:36. To be consistent, to criticise the WTS for quoting ( or paraphrasing ) the Bible in this way, must reflect an implied criticism of Bible writers, who do the same thing.

  At 1 Timothy 4:16, the writer tells Timothy that he is able to: 'SAVE himself AND them that HEAR him'. The lesson from this verse is that those who 'heard' Timothy preach, would become 'saved' as a result. The WTS is doing nothing disingenuous ( or 'arrogant', 'ant-Christian', or 'disgusting' ) in Paraphrasing this verse, and applying it to Christian efforts to 'save' those who 'hear them'.
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  carla

  Scout,

  Are you aware of the many times the wt claimed that you MUST come to THEM for salvation? If one is believer in the Bible, including the New Testatment, one would see that it is belief in Jesus and not an org that can offer salvation. It would be considered by many to be a blasphemous statement to be offering salvation to anyone as only Jesus can offer biblical salvation.
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  scout575

  Carla: When I was a Witness, not once did I read in WT publications that THEY are offering salvation. It would be ridiculous to make such an offer. Salvation was always presented as coming from God through Jesus ( 1 John 4:14 ). Of course, in order to be a recipient of salvation, a Christian can't disregard God's requirements ( Hebrews 5:9 ).

  JWs believe that they have found THE true religion, and that one aspect of obedience to god, is association with that religion ( Heb 10: 24, 25 ). Rejection of that organization is viewed as disobedience to god, which disobedience would offend god. An offended god would refuse to grant salvation to the disobedient person.

  Can you imagine someone asking the apostle Paul whether he thought god would save someone who rejects what Paul considered to be the true religion?. I believe that Paul would have said no. JWs take the same view. ( Please bear in mind that I'm now an agnostic, and no longer view the Bible as from god ).
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  carla

  Here's a few- The Nov 15, 1981 is the clearest of all! Furthermore, the rank and file don't even seem to realize that Jesus isn't really for them, but for the 144,000. Jesus is not the mediator for the peons apparently. You confuse me Scout, you claim to be agnostic but yet are an apologetic for the jw's.

  But if we were to draw away from Jehovah's organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy. [The Watchtower, September 15, 1993, p. 22]

  And while now the witness yet includes the invitation to come to Jehovah's organization for salvation, the time no doubt will come when the message takes on a harder tone, like a "great war cry". [The Watchtower, November 15, 1981, p. 21]

  This signifies that the provision of salvation is closely connected with Jehovah's organization. A remnant of the spiritual priestly class is still on earth today, forming the nucleus of the congregation of Jehovah's people. We cannot ignore the role the visible congregation of Jehovah's witnesses plays in this provision of salvation. [The Watchtower, August 15, 1967, p. 499]

  If we want to assure our everlasting salvation, we must stay within the bounds of Jehovah God's loving provision associated with his visible organization, presided over by his High Priest. [The Watchtower, August 15, 1967, p. 503]

  To understand the Bible for their salvation they had to have it explained through God's organization. [The Watchtower, November 15, 1961, p. 692]

  Those desiring salvation must make for God's organization, and find entrance into it and remain there permanently. [The Watchtower, October 1, 1952, p. 603]

  1 Bible students need to get acquainted with the organization of the "one flock" Jesus spoke about at John 10:16. They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah's organization is essential to their salvation. (Rev. 7:9, 10, 15) Therefore, we should start directing our Bible students to the organization as soon as a Bible study is established. [Our Kingdom Ministry, November 1990, p. 1]

  You must be part of Jehovah's organization, doing God's will, in order to receive his blessings of everlasting life. Live Forever Book 1982 pg 255 (in short you must be a jw for salvation)

  Any persons who want to survive into God's new order must now stream to Jehovah's true worship. 11-15-81 pg 16 WT (clearly this is an 'offer' of salvation through the jw's only)
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  scout575

  Carla: Thanks for your reply, but NONE of those quotes say that JWs are offering salvation. They are merely saying that for a person to gain salvation BY GOD, they need to be a part of the true religion ( which JWs believe is the organization associated with the WTS ).

  Jehovah's Witnesses believe that salvation comes to those who have faith in the saving power of Jesus' shed blood ( Eph 1:7 ). But, anyone who has genuine faith in Jesus' sacrifice would demonstrate that faith by his obedience to god's requirements ( any Christian who flouts god's requirements would be evidencing a lack of faith ).

  Just as a Christian rejecting the Biblical requirements of honesty, chastity, etc would result in god denying salvation to that person, so JWs believe that rejection of what they consider to be the true religion, would result in god denying that person salvation. At no point is it suggested that the organization itself is offering salvation. The belief is that just as a person HAS to be honest in order for god to grant him salvation, so too, he has to be part of the true religion in order for god to grant him salvation.

  By the way, having completely abandoned Christianity, I'm not an apologist for the WTS. Its just that I don't like to see ANYTHING misrepresented. If someone posted something on here saying that Born Again Christians believe that they have jump up and down in church, in order to be saved, I would want to point out that misrepresentation too.
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  carla

  How much clearer could 'come to jehovah's organization for salvation' be? What clearer language could be used? I don't know. Let's see, we can't understand the bible without the aid of the jw's, and apparently we cannot understand their literature without a jw being present. Is that right?

  If I said, 'come to me for salvation' wouldn't that sound like I was the one offering it?

  And all the quotes certainly imply that you cannot get salvation any other way other than to belong to their organization. Didn't Jesus say,' Come to ME'? I am the way the light and the truth? The wt bypasses Christ and puts themself in place of Christ. Saying you MUST be one of them for any 'hope'. Personally I find the term that jw's are 'the truth' blasphemous as well. A title for Jesus they give to themself.