Elder's KM School notes and apostates

by beavis 20 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • beavis

    This is a message to sir82 or anyone with information on the recent Kingdom Ministry School,

    I have had several discussions with a friend of mine whose brother went to KM School and he said there was information given about those who no longer attend meetings and are baptized "are sort of viewed as apostates". I was speaking with a family member of mine concerning this issue and two questions arose: 1. Are the notes from the recent KM School acurate? Of course I think they are, but trying to convince someone else is a different story, and 2. Was there any discussion concerning apostates and persons who no longer attend meetings?

    Here is the reason for the question. Several years ago, two elders made comments during a Watchtower lesson concerning this very discussion. A misapplication of 1 John 2:18,19 was used along with comments in the Reasoning Book. Also, another misapplied scripture was 2 John 8-11. (This is using the NWT) However, upon viewing the true meaning of the Greek word along with their own copy of the Insight volumes, it clearly defines an apostate. Even further, Jude 17-23 offers counsel to those who are doubting and to help them. So, was there any "new light" concerning apostates and not attending meetings?

    Thanks for the information, I enjoy reading everyone's discussions.

  • stillajwexelder

    even the WTS would not stoop this low surely? Stopping going to meetings does not make soembody apostate

  • candidlynuts

    in 1998 or so the elder that ran our bookstudy said that anyone who disassociates themselves are considered apostates. my ex asked him to show him the documentation that showed that was the societies stance.. the old man said that only elders were allowed to see that documentation.... we just assumed he was full of crap..but now i wonder if maybe they didnt have some kind of direction to think that way.

  • Gill

    Candidlynuts! Wonderful to see your avatar again! Hope you're well! I too remember hearing this from various elders a few years ago when we still used to attend the KH. Those who just stopped going to the meetings are considered to have become apostates, by their actions even if not by their words.

  • eyeslice

    Interesting thread.
    I think you have to remember though that all the WTB&TS is very centrally controlling, that in it self does not stop COs, DOs and elders expressing some very strange personal opinions, especially in the confines of elders meetings.
    Over the years, I have heard some comments that range from the bizarre to the ridiculous.

  • atypical

    It seems to be true in my case. I simply stopped going about eight months ago or more. Yesterday an old friend from the other side of the city called me because a witness from my hall told him that I "didn't want to have anything to do with the witnesses". The reality is, it seems to me that people who fade are considered the biggest threat, because they are not technically cut off and could still easily talk to witnesses if they wanted to promote their views. I think that is why so many have a really hard time fading.

    That being said, here is what the watchtower claims is their official stance:


    Do you shun former members?

    Those who become inactive in the congregation, perhaps even drifting away from association with fellow believers, are not shunned. In fact, special effort is made to reach out to them and rekindle their spiritual interest. If, however, someone unrepentantly practices serious sins, such as drunkenness, stealing or adultery, he will be disfellowshipped and such an individual is avoided by former fellow-worshipers. Every effort is made to help wrongdoers. But if they are unrepentant, the congregation needs to be protected from their influence. The Bible clearly states: 'Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.' (1 Corinthians 5:13) Those who formally say they do not want to be part of the organization any more are also avoided. What of a man who is disfellowshipped but whose wife and children are still Jehovah's Witnesses? The spiritual ties he had with his family change, but blood ties remain. The marriage relationship and normal family affections and dealings can continue. As for disfellowshipped relatives not living in the same household, Jehovah's Witnesses apply the Bible's counsel: "Quit mixing with them." (1 Corinthians 5:11) Disfellowshipped individuals may continue to attend religious services and, if they wish, they may receive spiritual counsel from the elders with a view to their being restored. They are always welcome to return to the faith if they reject the improper course of conduct for which they were disfellowshipped.

  • IronClaw
    even the WTS would not stoop this low surely? Stopping going to meetings does not make somebody apostate

    I have to disagree with you Stilla. I am living proof of this very situation. I am baptized, have stopped going to meetings and have been referred to as an apostate by the elders, my own sister, as well as being shunned by members of the congo.

    My only question is why they ( the elders ), do this and yet wont say it to me personally? I think I know why, but that's another thread altogether.

    Personally I have lost all respect if any I had for them. They are like little children playing name games with peoples lives.

  • TopHat

    "No discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but grievous; yet afterward to those who have been trained by it it yields peaceable fruit, namely, righteousness."
    HEBREWS 12:11

    From my point of view: The Watchtower org. and Governing Body need to be disciplined in righteousness. BUT that they have a blind eye to righteousness and do not see themsleves as others see them. What a shame!

  • willyloman
    the elder that ran our bookstudy said that anyone who disassociates themselves are considered apostates.

    I believe this refers to those who officially "Disassociate" themselves by writing a letter or telling two elders they no longer wish to be thought of as JWs. People who disassociate (small "d") themselves by dropping out and fading away quietly are in a different class, at least according to the WTS' own writings on the matter.

    In actual practice, however, most dubs are just as confused about what "D(d)isassociation" means. That's why folks on this board tell stories of being snubbed and viewed as evil apostates after they stop going to meetings. The WTS may need an official notifcation before they declare you "apostate," but the average trained-to-be-judgmental-and-gossip-prone dub does not.

    In my own case, we completely stopped going to meetings more than two years ago, after attending sporadically for several months prior to that. Hardly anyone has come around to see what's up. But we've noticed several times that dubs will cross the street to avoid us if they see us coming. I've no doubt we've been pigeon-holed.

  • blondie

    *** w80 11/1 pp. 30-31 Questions from Readers ***

    Does the missing of Christian meetings in itself constitute an unforgivable sin, since, at Hebrews 10:24-29, the apostle Paul speaks of this sin right after discussing the importance of meetings?

    Failure to heed the command to attend Christian meetings is serious and could lead to disastrous consequences for a servant of Jehovah. However, more is involved in committing the unforgivable sin.

    Reading the full 10th chapter of Hebrews will be helpful in understanding the matter. The apostle first points out that sacrifices under the Law provided no forgiveness of sins, but were a shadow of good things to come, involving the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Jehovah provided Jesus Christ as the perfect sacrifice to take away sins. This is a specific provision of the "new covenant." The apostle gives encouragement to "hold fast the public declaration of our hope without wavering." (Heb. 10:23) How can this be done? He points out the necessity of gathering together regularly to incite to fine works, not giving in to the custom of some to slight Christian meetings. Rather, we should be attending such meetings "all the more so as you behold the day drawing near."—Vs. 25.

    It is in this setting that the apostle continues: "For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and there is a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition. Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. Of how much more severe a punishment, do you think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified?"—Heb. 10:26-29.

    Hence, the conjunction "for" that begins the paragraph at verse 26 is not just a connective to the exhortation to attend Christian meetings, but ties back to all that is said prior thereto. One must accept God’s way of salvation through Christ and continue to appreciate this provision, while having in mind that the attending of meetings is one of the ways Jehovah has provided to keep one strong in faith and active in good works. That this is the case is further confirmed by what the apostle says in verse 29, where he shows what punishment is due one who "has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified."

    So we should not discuss Hebrews 10:24, 25 out of its setting and imply that failure to attend the meetings regularly is in itself what the apostle is talking about in discussing those who commit the unforgivable sin. Of course, when a person has "the custom" of not attending the meetings, he is working against his own spiritual interests and is in grave danger of growing weak in faith and becoming inactive in Christian works. This, in turn, could lead to a person’s actually denying or not taking seriously the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ and his thus losing out on everlasting life.

    The sin mentioned at Hebrews 10:26-29 does not apply to one from which the sinner is able to repent in sincere grief, appealing to God through Jesus for divine mercy. The sinner has actually renounced the Son of God as his savior and esteemed his sacrifice as having no redeeming value.—Compare Hebrews 6:4-6.

    Such a person is sinning against accurate knowledge and the operation of God’s holy spirit, and there is no possibility of his repenting and availing himself of God’s provision for salvation through Christ. God has made no other means available for saving such a willful sinner.

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