I think Islam is a peaceful religion...

by Pleasuredome 40 Replies latest jw friends

  • MuadDib

    You are indeed good, Forscher, except for one or two points.

    "After that, Islam was spread through conquest"

    That is incorrect. The Islamic Empire, in the sense of a political entity governed by an Islamic warrior elite, was certainly spread through conquest as the Arabs took down the Byzantines and Persians, who were so busy fighting one another to exhaustion that they were unprepared for a fresh onslaught from a more dynamic group of people. But Islam itself could hardly have been spread by conquest; the conquering armies were much, much too small to enforce such a young faith over the very well-established religions of Byzantium and Persia. In fact, the newly subject populations, being "Peoples of the Book," were allowed to keep their respective faiths subject only to certain restrictions (like paying special taxes and being unable to build a church or temple higher than a mosque). Only gradually did these populations convert to Islam, and then only because the new faith seems to have offered them a message lacking in their established traditions. Significantly, Islam was spread to sub-Saharan Africa and Indonesia (where more Muslims live than anywhere else) via commercial contacts, not warfare: people chose this religion willingly more often than they did not.

    If you want to hear about warfare and forced conversions, then check out Christianity, which was confined to the urban centers of the Mediterranean basin for centuries until Germanic warrior kings, setting up their own polities on the ruins of the Roman Empire, started forcing their subjects to convert (a task made easier, again, by the relative intellectual sophistication of Christianity as compared to their own pagan traditions). Often these warlords themselves were only converted spontaneously, in the heat of a losing battle, and considered Christianity a kind of magic that would help them keep winning their wars.

    I also feel compelled to point out that the Mongol hordes did not exist as such until the thirteenth century, long after the Islamic world had fractured into multiple distinct and autonomous polities.

    But you are dead on about Wahabbism, which if you ask me is the greatest problem facing Islam, internally, in this day and age. The difficulty isn't just that Wahabbism is a backwards and skewed interpretation of Islam, it's that the Saudi Royal family believes in it. America is no more to blame for the creation of this monster than sport shooters are to blame for the handgun industry: the responsibility lies on the shoulders of the corrupt fundamentalist despots descended from Ibn Saud. Replace them with progressive, enlightened Islamic governments and the problem will go away.

  • Hellrider

    God, that picture is priceless.

  • Pleasuredome

    nice one hellrider, you're on my wavelength

  • uninformed


    you are obviously a harkonnen imposter.

    I want your water.

    Paul Atreides

  • Saoirse

    These people scare me.

  • MuadDib

    Don't jump to conclusions. What if I'm a Tleilaxu face dancer?

  • Hellrider
    nice one hellrider, you're on my wavelength

    The sad thing is (but also really funny) is of course that that guy probably doesn`t even realize the irony. And the even funnier thing is that if I said out loud "do we really have to let that guy live here in Europe?", then the lefties/liberals would, triumphantly and selfrighteously in their selfproclaimed "moral superiority", label me racist. It`s so funny I feel like crying.

  • BlessedStar

    acad:Christianity, Judaism, Islam, their all the same, just a differant name.

    Not true at all.

    Islam: La ilaha illAllah. Word for word translation into English would read: La [no] ilaha [god] ill [except or but] Allah [Allah]. Note the word "Allah" is a name and is not the word for god. If "Allah" were the word for god, then the phrase would read, "there is no allah but allah.

    Heaven, as promised in the Quran describes men drinking endless quantities of wine and sex with women to which he is not married (Suras 2:25; 4:57; 11:23; 47:15). We wonder why Muslims will not drink wine or commit adultery on their wives now?

    Jesus Christ Christianity: The Bible describes heaven, through the word pictures of a beautiful city, a garden paradise, but never in base sensual ways. Rev 22:12-17

    Jews: According to the genealogy from Mary, on His human side Christ is descended from Judah and King David (Luke 3:31, 33; compare Acts 2:30; 2 Timothy 2:8). He came to His own [the Jews], and his own did not receive Him" (John 1:11).

    Blessed Star

  • mustang

    Then behead history.

    They can start by resurrecting and beheading historians of the last 1000+ years.

    The obvious route for Islam here is "revisionist history"; now where have we seen that before?

    Last year I read those portions of H.G. Wells "Outline of History" that pertained to Jesus, the rise of Christianity and Islam. Surprisingly, the tone of the book leads me to believe that Wells disliked Christianity and favored Islam.

    The historical record by Wells, (which is brief and is an outline without details in depth) showed a bloody, gory history of violence and wars for Islam. Beyond the violence and war is an immense amount of corruption and in-fighting. In addition, the Caliphate had apparently spawned one of the largest civil service organizations in history!!!

    Also, if one has the "true god" you would think that their wars would be victorious. Well, that isn't the case either: after 500 years the Reconquista drove the Islamic Moors out of Spain; the Mongols burnt Baghdad to the ground, Caliph and all; the Arabians, where it all started, eventually gave up wars of conquest and never gained ground past the Middle East and Africa; the Crusades were a see-saw battle that basically ended in a zero-sum draw; the Ottoman Turks stepped in and took up the cause, and kept western forces out of the "holy land" but were kicked out of eastern Europe in the approximately the 15 th century; the Ottoman Turks did hang on to their empire until W.W.I but finally fell.

    It is undeniable history that Islam started with war and was forged in the fires of war; but for all that, they fizzled and got as good as they gave. So much for another "true God".

    Wells eventually laments Islam's failure to live up to its promise.


  • daystar

    I think Pat Buchanan has some interesting things to say about all of this:

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