by evergreen 77 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
From the middle of the 2nd century there is a baptisimal creed as follows
I beleive in the Father Lord of all
and in jesus Christ our Saviour
and in the Holy Spirit the paraclete
and in the holy church
and in the forgiveness of sins
Doesnt this look like the nicean creed? in fact it is one of many creeds throughout christindom in the early centuries all haveing the same pattern. The creed of Caesarea which predated the nicean creed and was a basis for it in the forth century. Barry
FlyingHighNow, Actually he DID claim it, only not everybody hears it, sees it and believes it! When you read with opened eyes, you see at every second sentence Christ claiming he is God! The problem is if you do not recognize God's name, if you do not recognize the one person all the time appearing to Old Testament fathers and prohpets, if you do not recognize Gods work, Gods words... you will not recognize Christ. If you say that Christ is not God, you are claiming to KNOW what and who IS God, but Christ sayed if you knew Him youw would knew God. But MOST important thing is... if you do not recognize Christ as God, then you are still under your sin and Gods punishment is over you. If Christ is not God, then you are not saved! And nobody is saved.
They believe it because of 3 main reasons:
1 Blind religious tradition
2 People will generally believe and go along with whatever is commonly believed by their parents and community.
2 Bible translations that have replaced the tetragrammaton with 'Lord' and 'God' so that when people read 'Lord' in the Hebrew Scriptures and Lord in the Greek Scriptures they believe they are talking about the same person.
And also all this stuff comes from human undestanding of term "God". God sayed - "I am who I am". People thing about God as about beaing in image of human. But it is opposite. God is not like human in his nature. You even are not able to define term "person" without applying it to God. God is something different then men, so it is just assumption that he is LIKE human in his nature. God does not claim he is one person... he is claiming that he is the one who brings everything to reality. He is creator... THE CREATOR of this reality (and any reality beyond this). Even his name YHWH means that, so it should be translated not "LORD" but "CREATOR". But the assumption that creators nature is something like "powerupped man" is wrong. People are not able to change their view on reality even when God himself reaveals the reality... People whant reality to be in sync with their imagination. So if something (Christ) does not conform to their imagined "God" then he is not. And even God cant change their mind. So question here... Do you know YOUR God? Do you know him so well, than if he would stood up in front of you in the image of man, would you recognize him. Would it be enough him to say "I AM your God"? Would you believe such claim. What should God do in his human image to make you believe that he IS your God? Should he show his power by healing only by his words? Should he rebuke demons and Satan? Should he rebuke wind and storm? Should he rise from the dead? Would YOUR God die for you to proove his love to you as the creature of HIS image? How would you recognize YOUR God? I have recognized my God... in Christ... and untill I breath I put ALL my hope that he will not let my eyes to go blind and to deny Christ... My Lord and My God! Lord Christ, please do not leave me, but I know you would not, coz you promised so!
FHN:
I would think that if Jesus is God, he'd have made it so clear and so plain that it would be obvious,
He did, that's why the Jewish religious leaders wanted to do away with him.
Look at John 8:58 where Jesus could have answered "I was" but rather used a name for God "I am". The Jews recognised that and went to stone him.
Jesus didn't say it, exactly, but john 1:1 says that jesus and god were the same nature.
S
Thankyou for all your views on this subject.
Ozziepst ,thanks for correcting me re religions.
Spectrum- totally share your view .
Barry ,thanks for enlightening me with the 2nd century baptismal creed - very similiar to the nicea creed.
And flighinghigh now - have to agree with you that no where in the bible does it clearly and without any doubt emphasize that Jesus was or is God.
I strongly feel that certain scriptures are being used totally out of context when backing up the trinity doctrine. Leaving the whole trinity teaching in some kind of mysterious haze that ordinary individual cant truly grasp, which of course is the answer many christian faiths teach that it is simply a holy mystery?
Im sorry i am not showing scriptures on this topic. just back from night shift and seriously needing my bed. But please keep sending your views on this subject and thanks for taking the time to answer.
G'day evergreen:
I guess you realise that this topic has been discussed and argued about for nearly 2,000 years! I don't know how many threads there's been on it on JWD.
Seems to me that all that could be said by now has been said.
Cheers, Ozzie
If Christ is not God, then you are not saved! And nobody is saved.
Amen
What is so great about God is He allows humans free will to do and believe as they wish. Of course, with that free will also comes responsibility.
| United Penticostal Church preach the oneness of God in their church! Down where I live there are two churches right by each other, the United Penticostal Church and the Kingdom Hall and they are quite different but share that same principle belief that God and Jesus are separate! I know they disagree on who Jesus is, one says he's Micheal the arc angel and the other says that God is Jesus, the son is Jesus, and the holy spirit is also Jesus! I was brought up Catholic and so I am a favourite target of most Religions but I'm prowd of being who I am! It's really hard to find who has all the answers but so far I'd have to say I'll remain where I am because from what I see nobody has all the answers! Right! |
