by carla 42 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Sweet Scholar - your replies are extremely difficult to read. Perhaps you could try paragraphs etc if you wish for people to read what you are writing.
If you are using firefox check the Automatic Cr/Lf box so your paragraph breaks stay intact.
Having said that are you actually reading the responses people are posting here?
hi Carla. wow, what a venomous viper you obviously are. and nice sophist too. well that witness did not explain it totally correctly. 1 John was not written ONLY to the born again anointed class, but, get this clearly ok, PRIMARILY to them. it's that simple. not that hard to grasp. I know that some witnesses (sad to say) don't always explain thing clearly or totally accurately every second. and then the ones who are not all that knowledgeable are easier pray for your smooth venom and sly silly traps. but you're not talking to one of those types right now, sweetie. "other sheep" not of this fold. is not just physical Gentiles. because in Christ "there's neither Jew nor Gentile". or did you miss that one? by the way, that was a lovely (very UN-Christian and UN-kind COLD) thing you said to me.
yes, I admit my first posting was too wordy and bunched together. but not my second one on here. sorry about that first posting though. but even so. you were rude and dismissive. I at least read the stuff put on here. and believe it or not, if you red all of my things on the other sections, I actually do not so easily dismiss valid or seemingly good points raised by others on mattes. but actually CAREFULLY CONSIDER THEM AND RESEARCH THEM. yet I'm the bad guy with the bad tones?? that's funny. I notice that I'll get nit-picked at for my supposed "tones" but none of you are ever complained about with your tones. why? cuz it's people that agree with you to begin with. so they won't notice it in people that are tickling their ears. very selective I see. and very hypocritical. 144000 are the ONLY ones who have the Father's Name and His Lamb's Name written on their foreheads, and who "master that song" and are said to follow the Lamb everywhere. physical Jews? if so, the Bible contradicts itself when it says "Jew inwardly, not outwardly" and "if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed" speaking PRIMARILY (got that) to the "anointed" spirit-begotten ones. NOT the "other sheep" of Christ's Flock. tootles.
read the context, it's referring to political rulers, not the elders of God's Congregation, in whatever dispensation. now it's true that it can have a broader application in the sense of not putting total trust in any fallen imperfect human. son of Adam. I grant you that. because no one, not even God's appointed leadership in His Church can ultimatley provide you with salvation. Only God and Christ can do that. not an imperfect son of Adam. but you can't go bananas on that and ignore "be obedient to those taking the lead among you AND BE SUBMISSIVE" (Hebrews 13:17) "for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you." what do we do with verse, sweetie? or "the Holy Spirit and WE OURSELVES will add these NECESSARY THINGS onto you." (Acts 15) say it means something else, so conveniently?? or "beware the rebellious talk of Korah" (Jude 11,12) relegate that as inconsequential or just for Israel when Jude was applying (under the Holy Spirit) to the Christians??? Or "may you keep submitting to those types of persons" (1 Cor 16:16) how boot dat one? and "have regard for those presiding over you" (1 Thessalonians 5:12) or "let the elders who preside well receive DOUBLE HONOR, especially those who work hard in in speaking and TEACHING." (1 Timothy 5:17) or "He (Moses) is being entrusted with all My house" (Numbers 12:7) or "So they (Korah, Dathan, and Abiram) congregated themselves against Moses and Aaron and said to them: 'That is enough of you, because the whole assembly are all of them holy and Jehovah is in their midst (sound familiar?). Why then should lift yourselves up above (as leaders and "governers") the congregation of Jehovah?" but we know what happend to Korah and his apostate crew. they were electrocuted and burned with fire. how boot dat? one thing that people learn from history is that people don't learn from history. we hear today against JW leadership: why should you lift yourself and control things, blah blah blah. God and Christ are with us too. yeah sure. again, all Verses of Scripture need to be considered. from both "Testaments" obviously. important matters to think about. human nature generally tends to rebel against authority, even God's true appointed authority. as the cases in Scripture clearly show. "cast him out of the church" said Paul and John. how boot dat?
That's exactly what I said to the JW's last week. They've been visitng me once a week for some time now for bible studies. The thing is, its most of Judaism and Christianity that believe all that heinous stuff in the OT is inspired by god - this is greatly responsible for the troubled times we are in in my opinion. We live in a world where so many people believe, essentially, that God is a war criminal and that he is good. Something just doesnt add up here. What the JW's believe here is small potatos when you look at the big picture.
SweetScholar PMd me with the angry note he/she left here. Here is my response...
-- Sir or Madam,
I'm happy to reply to the message you sent me.
First, I certainly did not leave over the scripture I referenced. I'm glad you recognize there were other reasons. In fact the scripture I mentioned (although I felt it was eye-opening) was quite minor in relation to the enormity of evidence that led me to the conclusion that the Watchtower Society is not what it purports to be.
There were many small things over the years that caused me to question the absolute faith I had that it was only those in association with this organization who had Almighty God's approval. I never let those things bother me much. I was constantly irritated at those who would let disagreements or differences with elders or others in the congregation cause them to question "The Truth." As an elder, I would help smooth over the occasional questions some in the congregation had.
For me, the one issue that led me to finally give myself permission to give the organization an objective investigation was that of confession. I'd be happy to share the results of this investigation should you like to read of it. The investigation led me to many other issues. There was reams of proof that the organization was not the sole channel of communication from God to the rest of the planet. Much of this information I had heard before, but I'd never let myself examine it fully. Any examination I'd done had been by first consulting Watchtower Society publications--instead of remaining objective by being willing to fully consider *all* of the information.
The scripture you reference, "Not all saying to me, "Lord, Lord" will enter into the Kingdom of the Heavens..." is well taken. I know you found my previous comment strange. I have to confess I found yours strange too. The point I would make to you is that there is no clear Bible teaching that God is using an organization (such as the Watchtower Society) as His "sole channel of communication." While it's true that not all who profess a form of Godliness receive Jesus' favor, it's also true that you do not need to be part of a specific, organized group within Christianity either.
As one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I'd been persuaded to believe that "God has always worked through an organization." And I remember exactly the information I used to provide as "proof" of that. But I was wrong. The evidence from the Bible shows this not to be the case.
Consider the case of Philip and the Ethiopian. Philip was preaching in Samaria. An angel sent him to the road from Jerusalem to Gaza. On his way he met an Ethiopian eunuch. The spirit sent Philip to his chariot. After Philip baptized him, God’s spirit led Philip away.—Acts 8:36, 39, 40
Consider Cornelius, a devout, God-fearing man. He had a vision of an angel of God, who told him to send men to Joppa to get Peter. Meanwhile Peter, on the roof praying, fell into a trance, and was told by a voice that things formerly considered unclean were now clean. The spirit told him about the men sent by Cornelius. Peter went to Cornelius’ house, where he proclaimed the Gospel to a large group of people, who became Christians.—Acts 10:1-46
Jesus himself converted Saul. (Acts 9:3-6; 15) Saul (Paul), under the influence of holy spirit, was outstanding among the apostles for carrying the Christian message to non-Jewish persons. He started many congregations. Who authorized him to do so? Was it the congregation at Jerusalem or even Antioch, from which he left on his missionary journeys? No. Saul and Barnabus were commissioned as missionaries and sent out at the specific direction of the holy spirit.—Acts 13:1-4 There are many more examples throughout the scriptures.
I know the Watchtower Society teaches that the "faithful and discreet slave" mentioned by Jesus is a class of anointed humans, and that this class has been chosen as His personal mouthpiece. But the scriptures clearly teach that "there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Jesus Christ." I know how to count to one.
1 Corinthians 11:3 reads, "But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God." Headship, then, starts with God, then to Christ, to the man, to his wife. No mention of a "channel" getting in between there.
In your angry note, you suggested I "wake up." Waking up is what I did when I finally began to use the mind God gave me--instead of trusting in the nobles of the Watchtower Society.
Regards
you raised some issues. and I promise (if you're sincere about this whole thing with the spirit of learning from the matter, as I myself am trying to do as well, instead of a puffy huffy I know I'm right attitude). let's try to study this together in a congenial spirit. even though you're an apostate. sad to say. but even so. cuz I agree it's not always so black and white every second. but this is the point (and I can't get too deep into the matter at present, but soon I will) but let me first say that you're just plain wrong when you say that God Biblically did not use organized arrangements throughout pivotal points in dispensational history. Noah's Ark was necessary for salvation at that time in history and turned out to be "the only true church" at that time. and of course Noah and his family were looked at as presumptous and arrogant "exclusivist" too. (hence why I said "wake up") it matters NOT that they were only 8 people. that's not the issue. whether they were 8 or 800. the principle is the same. Noah's Ark and Church at that time. The Hebrew Israelites, under Levi and Judah, arranged and organized, with rules and laws that were BINDING on all the tribes. look at what happened to Korah and Dathan and Abiram for thinking how you're thinking. they were electrocuted and burned with fire. how boot dat? and the First Century True Christian Church, if you carefully read Acts and the Epistles, was under Central Oversight, with decisions that were BINDING on all the other local congregations. Read Acts 15,16. you bring up the Ethiopian Eunech and Cornelius?? it's amazing. that supports MY argument !!!! Cornelius could not progress and be fully "accepted of God" without the Theocratic GUIDANCE of Peter. did you forget that whole point of that?? and the Eunech needed Philip to teach him !!!!!!! "how can I know what this means without someone to teach me," he said to Philip. and guess what. Both Peter and Philip were part of the Apostolic and Eldership ("Senate" in Latin) of the Church !!!!! so for you to bring those cases up in a weird and feeble attempt to try to support the idea that it's ok to have this looke and independent nonsense that you see in apostate Korah-like "Christendom" is almost unbelievable. people see what they WANT to see, not necessarily what's actually truly there. nothing new under the sun. now check this out: IT SAYS CLEARLY IN ACTS 15:2 that it was NOT this silly Baptist-like democratic (from the bottom up) thing, but a THEOCRATIC top down orderly thing, "APOSTLES AND ELDERS" not just any average Christian witness and congregant. I know that Korah-like (why is it in Jude as a warning for true Christians that whole matter with Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, who rebelled and thought too that they didn't have to humbly subit to Jehovah's appointed LEADERSHIP ??? Jude makes the warning for Christians too. I wonder why, if it's all independent Baptist Baloney ways that are ok with God. hmmmm Jude 11, compare 2 Peter 3:7). Also, I don't think that the beloved Watchtower said that it's ONLY "circumcision", but I agree with you, the Mosaic Law in general, but TYPIFIED AT THE TIME with the circumcision issue. cuz that's specifically what was brought up. but notice PLEASE. and yes Roman Catholics have used the same argument for THEIR church (but the only problem is that Romanism is so pagan and warped and worldly and corrupt that they can't be God's true church), that it says "the Holy Spirit AND US" meaning the Apostles and Elders, "saw fit to add nothing unto you BUT THIS, abstain from blood, fornication, idolatry, etc". not just "oh the Holy Spirit guides me individually" blah blah blah. especially nto in the Last Days. in pivotal times in history, the Lord Yahawah NEVER worked in such a chaotic conflicting confusing way, but always in an organized centralized arrangement. Will you tell me that Mosaic Israel was not organized and arranged and binding????? Read Exodus and Leviticus a bit more closely why don't you. Noah told his family EXACTLY what needed to be done as far as the measurements of the Ark and the food and the lower beasts, etc. You see it in Acts and in the Letters for the True Christian Church too. First Century Biblical Christianity does NOT resemble the Southern Baptist Convention or the "Independent Baptist Churches" or the "United Pentecostals" or Presbyterians who fellowship with Lutherans on committees. I'm not saying that it resembed the elaborate weird heirarchy of the Roman Catholic Church either. You don't see the terms "cardinals" or "arch-bishops" or "pope" or "his holiness" or "father McNeal" or "diocese" or "Mass" or "Vatican" or "Holy See" or whatever else. but again, it was NOT so loose and independent and chaotic in the first century either. Paul and Peter and James and John directed things, buddy. human nature tends to want to rebel against authority. people never learn from history. "do not even say a greeting to such a man" is for what then? "do not murmur" is for what then? "beware the rebellious talk of Korah" is for what then??? "BE OBEDIENT TO THOSE TAKING THE LEAD" IS FOR WHAT THEN???? son, it's NOT just "one or two verses". it's a host of passages and principles, from both "Testaments". but anyway, as I said, I appreciate your thoughts, though I disagree with like 98% of what you're saying. and I'll get more into the specifics of what you brought up at later dates, as I do more research both in the Word of God, and in some dictionaries and volumes that I have, both Witness and non-Witness stuff. but the stuff I said so far is really enough for you and others to undestand (Acts 15:2) that it was not this free-for-all thing that you're saying, but leadership and direction and central oversight, with decisions that were BINDING on all the local congregations. there's no getting around those hard stubborn facts. not matter how much Scripture juggling or twisting or smooth sophistry you may use at times. to say that God did not use organized and orderly arrangements throughout the Bible is insane. Noah, Moses, Jesus, Peter, Paul, all Theocratic, top down, and binding. you had to be part of those things. yes "channel". Roman Catholics aint it either. cuz of all their paganism and corruption and idolatry. but it's not the miserable mess and joke of mish-moshed Protestantism either. Babylon means confusion. And God is not the author of what you believe in. utter confusion and confliction and chaos. that's apostate Christendom for you. "I never knew you" if you'll notice is said to the MAJORITY of professing "Christians". not just a few here and there. scary. but we'll talk more about it. thanks for correspondence. peace.
you're only saying it's literal "gentiles" cuz that's what YOU have been taught and programmed to believe by Protestantism. where do you see in John 10 the word "Gentiles" in any specific clear reference to those "other sheep"? and again where do you even see the word "Israel" in John 10 in reference to the first "sheep fold". no. what's clear is that the first sheep fold would be anointed born again Christians who would be both Jews and Gentiles, since Christ says He lays down His life for them. what? Christ does not lay down His life for the Gentiles? "other sheep" right after is mentioned. since that was the immediate context, NOT discussions about Israel versus Gentiles. so what do you mean "context"? where do you see in the context anything about the sheep fold referring to physical Jews and physical Gentiles? so you're a hypocrite and liar. you have the blinders, cuz your expositers and Protestant books have taught you (and of course you buy it like a fool) that the "other sheep" have to be physical Gentiles. ignoring the point that there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in Christ's anointed flock. "other sheep" has to mean something else. the problem is that you think the 144000 are literal Jews despite what Paul said regarding that kind of thing. "Jews inwardly not outwardly" is for what then, if literal Jews have to figure in too?? contradiction if that's the case. but whatever. you'll believe what suits you. you hypocritically talk about "blinders" when the same can be said about you and your crew. going by the party line of "oh duhh, the other sheep are the gentiles, aah doyh". despite no clear contextual evidence for that assertion. though you claim there is. when there actually isn't. it's laughable. later.
you can't go bananas on that and ignore things like "be obedient to those taking the lead among you AND BE SUBMISSIVE" (Hebrews 13:17) "for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you." what do we do with verse, sweetie? or "the Holy Spirit and WE OURSELVES will add these NECESSARY THINGS onto you." (Acts 15) say it means something else, so conveniently?? or what about "beware the rebellious talk of Korah" (Jude 11,12) relegate that as inconsequential or just for Israel when Jude was applying it (under the Holy Spirit) to the Christians??? Or "may you keep submitting to those types of persons" referring to the elders and leadership.(1 Cor 16:16) how boot dat one? and "have regard for those presiding over you" (1 Thessalonians 5:12) or "let the elders who preside well receive DOUBLE HONOR, especially those who work hard in in speaking and TEACHING." (1 Timothy 5:17) or "He (Moses) is being entrusted with all My house" (Numbers 12:7) or "So they (Korah, Dathan, and Abiram) congregated themselves against Moses and Aaron and said to them: 'That is enough of you, because the whole assembly are all of them holy and Jehovah is in their midst (sound familiar?). Why then should lift yourselves up above (as leaders and "governers") the congregation of Jehovah?"
but we know what happend to Korah and his apostate crew. they were electrocuted and burned with fire. how boot dat? one thing that people learn from history is that people don't learn from history. we hear today against JW leadership: why should you lift yourself and control things, blah blah blah. God and Christ are with us too. yeah sure. again, all Verses of Scripture need to be considered. from both "Testaments" obviously. important matters to think about. human nature generally tends to rebel against authority, even God's true appointed authority. as the cases in Scripture clearly show. "cast him out of the church" said Paul and John. how boot dat? (and to think that you were once an elder.
apparently not a very keen Bible student though. not all elders are necessarily. I know that you think you are now. but if you keep spewing out that gas that God did not work and use and communicate through an organized body throughout Biblical history and dispensations (Noah's Ark, Israel, First Century Apostolic Christianity) then you aint no keen avid Bible study-er. you're just a rebellious Korah-like apostate fool. I hate to sound so invective and mean, but I'm just being matter of fact and Biblical when I say that. you have a very scatter-brained attitude with all this. you actually with a straight face used Cornelius and Eunuch as examples in a kooky attempt to support your position. that was priceless.
again, Cornelius got nowhere without Peter the Apostle and Elder and Leader of the Church. and the Ethiopian got nowhere without Philip the Elder and Leader of the Church. and "someone to teach me". guidance. THE HOLY SPIRIT AND WE OURSELVES ADD THESE NECESSARY BINDING THINGS ONTO YOU. again I'll ask you: how boot dat. yeah, whatever.
Carla, give him time.
Golf
SweetScholar, if you wouldn't mind a few auxiliary items I'd like to address. First, your posts are quite difficult to read. I think it may be the result of copying and pasting from a word processor; not sure. It's just a request--could you try to fix it?
Second, I'd like to address some of your statements. Such as...
and I promise (if you're sincere about this whole thing with the spirit of learning from the matter, as I myself am trying to do as well, instead of a puffy huffy I know I'm right attitude). let's try to study this together in a congenial spirit.
I think you'll find, while we have a disagreement, that my comments to you were made in the "congenial spirit" you mention. I would like to point out, though, that your posts seem to be written in a fit of anger. Could I ask please that you moderate the tone? Sarcastic comments and gratuitous assertions do nothing to advance your position--at least with me. Is the expression, "How boot dat," supposed to help make a point? If you are not adopting a "puffy huffy I know I'm right attitude," then I request please that you try to infuse your comments to me with the respect that a "congenial spirit" suggests.
I don't think you understood my points about Phillip, Cornelius and Paul. Yes, these were helped by others, but there was no body of humans directing their work. The Bible reports that it was "God's spirit" that directed them. But, since you are so certain God has always used an organization, I will direct you to information that I think you'll find will utterly refute this belief. It was written by my friend, Tom Cabeen, who served as a Bethel elder, Society spokesman and Watchtower Society pressroom overseer from about 1968 to 1980.
http://www.brci.org/Attachments/Org.pdf
If, after reading this treatise in its entirety, you still believe that God has "always worked through an organization," then I will look forward to your respectfully-stated reasons why.
