Thanks again everybody. He has said there is something he has 'problems' with or 'doubt' but wouldn't tell me. He seems to be unable to come to terms with,- ok, so you accept Jesus as your personal Savior, then what? you go do whatever you want? --- he has said that a number of times over the years, I wonder if this could be the area in which he has problems? Knowing he needs to come to Christ for salvation rather than the org? but doesn't know what's 'next'? Feels the need to have someone tell him what to do? I have tried many different ways of explaining, using scripts, etc... maybe an exjw can put this into word he would understand?
exjw, is there a script
Numbers 31 shocked me the most, here we find Moses Ordering a war crime and having nothing said by God about it which means God approved of it. as a believer I would give god the benefit of the doubt....however now I just read and think, how could I have ever justified in my mind the murder of defenseless women and children for any reason?
anyone care to take on my question from above post? thank you.
Re: anyone care to take on my question from above post? thank you.
You opened the thread with a general question, to all comers, I take it. That is w/out any specific reference to a person or specific issue; then your 2 nd & 3 rd posts do this:
"But, I'm glad you found those scripts if they helped release your mind a bit from the stronghold the wt had at one time."
"Thanks again everybody. He has said there is something he has 'problems' with or 'doubt' but wouldn't tell me. "
Did I/we miss something????
no, you didn't miss anything. I meant my recent post above Zen. The post about the 'yoke' I was simply replying that I thought that would be useful to husband as well, but the jw response just kicked in, more or less. To try to be more articulate in my question I shall rephrase- If you were a jw who came to understand that you needed Christ as your mediator and savior, did you have a problem with what to 'do' next after accepting Christ (instead of the 144,00)? Did you still feel the need to have someone tell you what to do in life? (is highjacking my own thread in bad taste?) And I do thank everybody for any responses to any of my questions. After all, to where else would I go?
"Flee, flee unto the hills..."
Carla, which christ?" carmel
Certainly not the 'christ' of the wt, which if I understand correctly is made up of not only Jesus Christ but also the 144,000. I shall rephrase again---
if you were a jw and discovered (on your own or in your own mind or on the fifth plane, it doesn't matter how!) that the bible said that you must 'come to Jesus Christ' and not an organization, did you have difficulty doing so due to feeling that you need someone ( another human being or group of human beings) to guide every step of the way for you?
If you are an atheist, just pretend for moment that Jesus Christ is/was a real character and is capable of saving you from any sins, real or imagined.And that you needed such 'saving' . If you are a Christian, you know what I mean, I think.
There are many who by their passivity,
dependency, fear and laziness, seek
to be shown every inch of the way and
have it demonstrated to them that
each step will be safe and worth
their while. This cannot be done.
For the journey of spiritual growth
requires courage and initiative and
independence of thought
(my apologies for not citing author, long forgotten by me now)
10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD,
"and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD,
and apart from me there is no savior.
It's easy to see straws or beams or splinters in other people's eyes, and yet fail to notice the trunks and logs and things in our own eyes. We all do it. but anyway, about those emails. there are points that are never really truly honestly addressed. that there are "cases"; and then there are "REAL cases" that can be put forth that have merit. superman or godzilla or David Koresh in Waco thinking that He's God's Lamb and mankind's Savior have no real merit, and are not strong cases. in the spirit of fairness and honesty, I conceded that a "case" (though not a bullet-proof or totally air-tight case) can be made for a co-eternal trinity concept, literal conscious "hell-fire", etc, but NOT for things like Mary was immaculately conceived or that it's ok to bow and pray and kiss statues and icons in worshipful manner. (Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox). or the Mormon idea that God the Father is Flesh and Bones. those things have NO strong "case". but if you're honest, it must be admitted that a good "case" can be made for the Semi-Arian Paternal Supremacy position also. and so forth. And to re-iterate concerning things you said and repeated. The Father Almighty wants me to worship Jesus. Jehovah in Heaven surely wants that. on that we agree. God the Father wants me to worship our Lord and His Son the way His Word outlines. And after the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Christ, with high "proskyneo," like the angels are to do. (Hebrews 1:6) and with high praise and honor and devotion. (Revelation 5) but do I see the "alone" type of "latriea" being told to me, in the Bible, to go to Christ? no I don't see it, cuz it aint clearly there to see. and as I said, I can only go by what I see and what I know and by what is clearly revealed in Scripture. if you choose not to see that "proskyneo" and "latriea" are NOT the exact same, despite fairly compelling internal Biblical and Linguistical evidence that kinda says that they're really different in level and degree, then there's not much further I can say or do. (again, you never really answered my question that if, Biblically and Linguistically speaking, the Greek "proskyneo" are "latreia" are exactly the same thing, then why would the Holy Spirit choose to use different words in the first place?) and why wouldn't the Spirit make it super-abundantly without-even-a-smidgen-of-a-doubt clear that "latreia" goes expressly unambiguously to God's Son? and why did the Holy Spirit and Christ Jesus put the word "alone" in the "latriea" part of the statement in Luke 4? why does proskyneo go to both Father and Son in the "New Testament" from all creation properly, yet "latriea" (the "alone" latriea of Luke 4) only clearly irrefutably goes only to God the Father properly in Scripture? (remember the number of Verses that I put in bold type showing that.) the distinctions are NOT "imagined". I did not imagine the word "alone" in Luke 4, with regard to "latreia", but never in regard to "proskyneo" in the "New Testament." I did not "imagine" the fact that "latriea" never goes to Christ in the "New Testament", the strict "alone" type sacred service. I did not make those things up. well that's that, Robert. and it's not a Unitarian "invention" or "imagination" or concoction. and really, what would be the point even?? Also, I have to say that I was NOT "nit-picking" about the points about being truly separated and sanctified like God's Word directs. Don't confuse me with the Holy Spirit, Robert. I didn't say these things; God's inspired Word did. and not just an "interpretation" either. The general principles are there. "For OUR INSTRUCTION". (Romans 15:4) But a true and Scriptural and clear understanding of pointed and cutting Verses. Because if that's the case, then God Himself is a nit-picker. I did not say to "not mix the true with the false," that was the Word and Spirit of God that said that. AND THE GENERAL PRINCIPLE IS THERE. Why would God put those things in the Bible, if it's only to be relegated to that specific time, in Israel or Bablyon exclusively? "All things were written AFORETIME, FOR OUR INSTRUCTION." (Romans 15:4) I did not say "touch not the unclean thing" and also "what agreement does Christ have with Belial" or "decorating trees is a 'vain custom' of the nations, and 'hot air', and is idolatry" and "decking it with silver and gold" is what heathen idol-woshippers did(Jeremiah 10:4) and as a general applicable principle "learn NOT the way of the pagan nations and peoples" like Egyptian Evergreens that people used to worship and decorate in times past (how was your Christmas by the way? did Christ in Heaven approve of all that pagan crap? all that junk dumped on His supposed "birthday" on the Feast of Saturnalia, the Babylonian and Egyptian Sun-God, and winter solsctice. mixed with the Bible. yikes. picking at "nits" is the way apostate Christendom (all corrupt branches) looks at these things. not thinking that God cares. not very careful Bible students I see. not really following "all Scripture" (2 Timothy 3:16) and not truly pure in Christian conduct and un-tainted living and practice. and also mingling and involved in worldly corrupt elections and nationalism and politics and insane wars. and just general impurity. yet making a silly fuss over things like "trinity" and whatever else. calling Jesus "God and Lord" yet not really doing what He commands, nor what His God and Father says to do and not do. yeah, trifles, sure. "nitish" stuff. I'm sure those who perished in the Flood thought they were ok with the God of Enoch too. thinking that preaching and building and Ark and being so separate from the rest of the world was not all that necessary. it's scary. again, let me repeat: I'll worship Jesus the way the Bible says I should, AND NOT BEYOND THAT. again, also what I said before about just how old Christ is: BEGINNING (ARKHIE) of God's creation. not "beginnER" but "beginnING", and not "ruler" (a different Greek word) of God's creation" according to Revelation 3:14, but "the first" of it (Proverbs 8:22-36; Collossians 1:15-18, and compare John 2:11 for the word "arkhie" or "beginnig" of Christ's miracles. in other words, THE FIRST miracle, not separate from the group of miracles. so Christ is THE FIRST of God's Productions, before ages. therefore not the same age as His Father. No true son is as old as his father. in whatever dimension or realm. if you want to give "latriea" to Jesus (thinking that "latriea" and "proskyneo" are no different) then it's your choice. I'll instead stick carefully with the Bible's prescription of it though. and I'll understand that no word or variety of words are in the Bible for no reason. if distinctions and differentiations are made and shown when they are read, then I will make a careful note of it, and not stubbornly refuse to see it nor deny it. and if the Father is greater than the Son, as the Son Himself confessed (John 14:28; 20:17; Revelation 3:12), then why shouldn't the Father receive "greater" worship? "Latriea," that only clearly goes to the Father in the Bible, and has the word "alone" in front of it???? and also, if you want to think that Christ is a make-believe Son of God, and not a True Genuine Son, and not the REAL "Firstborn" Son of God, in the literal and truest sense, then knock yourself out. But I tried to put forth sound reason and doctrine. And I also told you that if the Bible clearly showed that Christ had no beginning, and was just a figurative metaphorical "Son", and was literally and clearly equal to the Father (in those precise and clear words) then I would believe and proclaim it. but since those things are NOT expressly and clearly and undeniably shown in Scripture, I will refrain from doing or saying stuff like that. I'll "NOT go beyond what is clearly set down in Scripture" (1 Corinthians 4:6) in a pretense and notion and distorted view that I'm honoring Christ, and claiming that I am "Christ's own", while at the same time disobeying His Bible and His Word and His Will, left and right, upside down, inside out, and think that it's just "nits". disobeying His Bible in various important ways, and mixing demonism with Christianity, and thinking it's "trifles" or no big deal, Nah, I won't do that, sir. I'll take seriously what God takes seriously. Without watering those things down, or ignoring them. or pooh-poohing the principles. (it's not easy to be a truly separated and sanctified and true and pure and untainted Christian, and "no part of the world" and all its pagan and political corruption.) (And if you still continue to think that those things are so minor and are "nits", and that God doesn't really care about them, then please try to read these following verses; and, Robert, it's the Bible, so there should be no objection from you, to reading the Bible, and taking a few minutes, and examining verses of Scripture. Since you say that you love the Bible. For real. And I DID READ the few verses that you mentioned in your emails. Romans and etc. These verses here are interesting (in any version of the Bible) : 2 Corinthians 6:15-18; Revelation 21:27; 18:2,4; 9:20,21; Jeremiah 10:2-5; Luke 13:24; Psalm 106:39; Isaiah 52:11; Ezekiel 22:3; Deuteronomy 32:17; 1 Corinthians 10:20,21; Luke 6:46; etc.) Gabe