Christians - Can you Ever Lose your Salvation?

by gumby 64 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • hamsterbait
    hamsterbait

    St paul says that there is an inheritance reserved in the heavens "AS LONG AS YOU CONTINUE" in the things learned.

    He says "that after i have preached to others I may not be disapproved somehow"

    Jude: the Brothers at love feasts tempting the weak into sin and eternal destruction.

    Those in the congregation who twist paul's words to their own destruction. (Peter says) were they never really born again - how do you tell the difference??

    It all sounds like the FDS caliming they can have their crown back, even if they go away live an evil life and then come back to da troof ten seconds before Armageddy.

    HB

  • mdb
    mdb

    The JWs follow a similar "lost-it" position, based on 1.Cor.10:12, however they ignore that the verse doesn't actually say that the individual is standing, only that they think they are.

    It surprises me that the Watchtower could cite a verse like this in order to support their doctrine. Read the verse in context…

    Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. (1 Cor 10:12-14)

    These verses are clearly talking about the moment in which an individual is being drug away by their own evil desires into temptation. It has nothing to do with a person “falling from their salvation”, but is a warning to “take heed” lest you fall into sin. It is at that point when a man thinks that he stands by his own accord, forgetting that he only stands by God’s grace, and his heart becomes prideful that a falling is very near. “Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall.” (Proverbs 16:18)

  • mdb
    mdb
    this is where the ultra-Calvinist would question whether such a person was ever saved in the first place.

    Why do we still do this? I follow Calvin, I follow Paul, I follow Apollos, I follow...

    Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? (1 Cor 1:10-13)

    Do we never learn?

  • Ianone
    Ianone

    John Calvin was a murderer and a fraud who mirrored his heretical idol, "St." Augustine. Both gnostic-platonists.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    mdb:Ironically, Calvinism is quite a distance from the position Calvin held, on a number of things. Theology evolves.

    Megadude:
    Great analogy, but here's the rub:

    I believe that the marriage arrangement is a covenant "here below" that shadows the covenant "above". Hence once we enter into that "spiritual" marriage it's binding. God doesn't divorce, would seem to be the biblical message, as further evidenced with his dealings with Israel.

  • oldflame
    oldflame

    Scully,

    Farting in elevators is unforgiveable ? I hate that when it happens especially done when the person doing it does'nt care about others around.

    Hey I got to hand it to a lot of you guys, your very knowledgeable in many things and I sure do learn a great deal from many of you. Thanks for your good work......

  • gumby
    gumby

    Hamsterbastard,

    Jude: the Brothers at love feasts tempting the weak into sin and eternal destruction.

    When you read the context, yes, these were believers in christ, however the warning was for those who would DENY christ ( see verse 4 ) in which sin is unforgivable according to Jesus.

    MDBastard,

    Why do we still do this? I follow Calvin, I follow Paul, I follow Apollos, I follow...

    Nobody is saying they FOLLOW these men....as one would FOLLOW christ. Sharing the opinion on scripture with another doesn't mean you ' follow ' them.

    Satanasaurus,

    Can i be devil's advocate for sociopaths? Thankyou. All indications are that true sociopaths are unable to change their state, even if they wanted to

    Ok ya winey bastard I used the wrong word so slap me im my nutsack why don't ya! ...sheesh! What I mean was..........Some people regardless of the love shown to them, the chances they are given, and the consequences they see for themselves going down the wrong path.....will STILL take that wrong path. Actually your correct about a sociopath as they have NO FEELINGS OF REMORSE. This is different than one who feels but carries out the act regardless. Your correct also in Jesus/god being the judge of these ones. There, I apologized and admitted my mistake.....will ya send me a dube in the mail now?

    DD,

    Psssst LT

    Do you think Gumby is checking for fire insurance?

    LMAO.....Good one Actually, even though I don't believe that way....I somehow feel relieved

    Ianone,

    It really doesn't matter what kind of person Calvin was. If his teachings had substance....who cares. I heard ghandi played with himself

    And Megabastard,

    Just because you accept that person for all time doesn't mean you're really going to do it over the long haul. You may choose to get a divorce later.

    This brings me to an important issue.

    From a biblical perspective, those who reject christ out of true disbelief are DIFFERENT than one who truly believe... yet rejects him. It would be like a kid crying "daddy daddy I love you, please hold me"..........................and the daddy walks away. I can't see anyone who truly believes without serious doubts turning away.

    I also disagree with the mans statement I took the material from in my initial post on this thread. He said,

    "The new nature, the spiritual being born of the new birth, is not disposed to sin, and will be destroyed if the sin is wilful and continued. One born of God cannot engage in willful sin."

    That's bullshit! How many christians do we all know who fall into willful sin sin? He makes it sound as if once you are truly in christ, no sin will be willful or practiced. Baloney!

    Anyway, back to MegaBastards thought,

    Many many here on JWD have become non-believers and deny christ was the real deal. I myself am one who has become a doubter of the bible and much of it's contents. I don't think there are too many here who if christ were to appear to them face to face and told them he loved them and not to worry...........that any would deny him. Question him, but not deny him.

    Gumby

  • mouthy
    mouthy

    How many christians do we all know who fall into willful sin sin? He makes it sound as if once you are truly in christ, no sin will be willful or practiced. Baloney

    Said by my buddy Gumby

    Personally I think ALL Christians - at one time or another do!!! even willful!!As Paul said "For the good that I wish I do not do, but the bad that I do not wish is what I Practice. " ( that is from the JW Bible - I like it better in the NIV) Romans 7:19
    I am sorry I have to quote scripture But I am short on my time for Bethel this month & it is late in the month

  • mdb
    mdb
    Ironically, Calvinism is quite a distance from the position Calvin held, on a number of things. Theology evolves.

    Theology "evolves" or men by changing theology stray from the truth which never changes? (I'm not saying all or any of the Calvanistic view is or is not in error - I really don't care; I follow Christ Jesus).

    Are people "Calvinists" or Christians? Do we follow Calvin or the Calvinistic theology (which you say has "evolved") or do we follow Christ who is unchanging and full of truth?

  • bebu
    bebu

    Gumbee'd,

    Have to agree with

    If a guy loves Christ it's good enough for me

    But then, whoever professes to love Christ has to deal with Christ himself...

    JN 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command."

    His commands are simply repent, have faith in God/trust in him, love God/each other. And if someone loves him, the issue always changes from simple rules to really wishing to please him, wherever that goes. Love energizes people incredibly.

    So when I am defensive about something I'm doing which is questionable, I eventually have get to whether I'm really wishing to please Christ, or using my freedom as an excuse to please myself. Putting both the good and bad and grey up for God to sort, and be ready to accept even what I don't want (if that's how I see things going) is the basic attitude. So easy to say, so challenging to do.

    And as for losing salvation...

    I think that the analogy of a marriage is not so far off. Being a Christian is not quite being married so much as it is an engagement, and an engagement could be called off (yes, I know engagements were practically considered as marriage back then, which is also interesting to think about). ...But I won't be dogmatic on this. To me it seems that we need to have faith as if it all depended on us, and yet utterly trust God to have saved us in spite of ourselves.

    Somehow it doesn't surprise me to see such a paradox here!

    bebu

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