Do you believe ...

by AhHah 89 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    Hi Ahah,

    I'm back but at another computer. Interesting question about "blessing" individuals rather than "organizations". If I may digress, the protestant break form Catholicism was at one time intended to be just such a phenomena. Not that that is an answer but it seems to be a common thread amongst JWs who are gravely discontent with the "organization" as well as ex'es. For so many years the idea that all organized religion was a farce and a trap, (except the Borg) and indeed there is plenty of evidence to support the misbehavior of all of them, that it is hard to extricate oneself from the subjectivity of such thinking. If organizations (religious) have been currupted and have lead to inhumane treatment of fellow humans, certainly individuals are equally quilty and possibly worse. An organization of duped followers, however, gives the leadership (clergy) much greater resourses to do harm.

    That asside, why would God not be interested in the collective affairs of humanity, but only individuals? Are we meant to be solitary non-social organisms and live by no rules? Is not morality and the beatitudes directing us toward how we treat each other? If we leave out collecive morality, then it would seem that all the individual morality is worthless if we can act any way we wish as a corporate body. This seems to be the way of the secular world, which over time is changed as it isn't utilitarian. Even constraints on corporations is common today.

    Certainly if we take the OT, NT and Koran as a sequence of writings about human spirituality and collective spiritual evolution, the changing laws and progressively complex relationships are addressed. There are dozens more laws in the Koran that address social enterprise than either of the previously cited texts. Once the old "laws" or social teachings are proscribed, the older teachings are abrogated. Was the sabbath made for man or man for the sabbath?

    I don't think it is possible to address individual spiritual evolution without addressing the collective as they are reciprical to each other.

    One last thought. If we consider the possiblity that instead of all the world's revealed religions as being from one source, but addressing different peoples in different environments and traditions at different times, then God is not selecting one over the other or replacing one with the other. He is simply renewing the effects of His periodic intervention. We are at the point now where the history and traditions of all of them can be examined, understood and reconciled. Don't you think this would be in our interests, perhaps what was intended and better than the "I win, you all lose" scenario of most religionsts?

    Cheers

    carmel

  • AhHah
    AhHah

    Carmel,

    You make an interesting point. Can God truly bless individuals, and be neutral or non-interfering with their religious systems? I personally believe that He can and does. Otherwise, God becomes at least somewhat responsible for the collective actions of the religions. Since people of diferent religions have no compunctions about slaughtering one another, I find this all the more reason for God to distance himself from them, and yet, bless the individual efforts of those who seek Him.

    If we consider the possiblity that instead of all the world's revealed religions as being from one source, but addressing different peoples in different environments and traditions at different times, then God is not selecting one over the other or replacing one with the other. He is simply renewing the effects of His periodic intervention.

    You seemed to have moved away somewhat from your original post about the succession of the prophets and the resulting "judgment day" cycle?

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    Ahah,

    I don't see that being the case. It depends upon how literally one uses the term "judgement day".

    cheers,

    carmel

  • Theophilus
    Theophilus

    Greetings! I'm new here. Found this thread and thought I'd reply. I hope I'm not interupting a private conversation...I'd like to address a number of the issues raised in the thread, but first, I'll answer the survey just like everyone else had to do...

    1. Do you believe in God (or that the universe has a Creator)? Yes. Absolutely.

    2. Have you ever regularly attended meetings of Jehovah's Witnesses (either baptized or not)?
    No. Never.

    3. Do you personally agree with all current teachings and practices of Jehovah's Witnesses?
    No. From my research, I'd have to say none.

    4. Do you believe that the modern-day organization of Jehovah's Witnesses has God's blessing?
    No. Not at all.

    5. Do you believe that the modern-day organization of Jehovah's Witnesses is God's ONLY channel of spiritual revelation to mankind?
    No. Not at all.

    6. Do you believe that Christianity is the only form of worship approved by God?
    True Christianity, Yes. Religeous Christianity. Nope.

    7. Do you believe that the Bible (or parts of it) are inspired by God?
    Yes, I'd say all of it.

    8. Do you believe that any religious book(s) other than the Bible are inspired by God?
    None that I'm aware of are directly inspired as the Bible or biblical literature is. Truth is truth, and partial truth can be found outside the Bible.

    9. Do you believe that there will be a judgment day from God -- when God will judge living humans and put to death any that are not approved?
    I believe in the judgement day, perhaps not in the same way you have described it.

    10. Do you believe that mankind is living in the Bible's prophesied "last days" and that a judgment day from God will come in the near future?
    Last days in the sense that it is the epoch between Christ's coming and the end of the world? Yes. No man knows the day, but relatively near future, yes.

    Now, If I may, I would like to take up some of the issues raised.
    The position that has been presented, that of progressive revelation through Judaism, Christianity and Islam, is really a limited relativism. The notion that they are all paths to truth. I must disagree. For it is written:
    Malachi 3:6-7
    "For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
    "From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from My statutes and have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you," says
    the LORD of hosts. "But you say, 'How shall we return?'

    also,
    1 Samuel 15:29
    "Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind."

    and,

    Psalms 110:4
    The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind,
    "You are a priest forever
    According to the order of Melchizedek."

    Hebrews 6:17-18
    In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to
    take hold of the hope set before us.

    God does not change. His requirements do not change, his character does not change, his plan does not change.
    You may say, from Judaism to Christianity is a big change, but I would remind you that there are some 300 prophecies beginning in Genesis and moving right up through Malachi that predict nearly every aspect of the Messiah's life. Everyone of them was fulfilled by the life and work of Jesus Christ. God's redemptive plan was announced IMMEDIATELY after the fall of man in the garden.

    Getting back to the issue... It is impossible that all belief systems or religeons should weigh equally on the scale. For if one says "we are all gods" and another "there is one God" how can they both be right? If one says " Man lives once and then faces judgement" and another says "we keep coming back, over and over again until we get it right" then how can both be right? If one says "'god' is an impersonal force, blind to what is really going on" and another says "God is active in this world and personally concerned with our lives to the point that he cares about the number of hairs we have on our head" They cannot both be right. It's mutually exclusive. Either one is right and the other is wrong, or they are both wrong.
    Narrow? rigid? Yes. But the kid who says 2+2=5 fails the test.
    for it is written:
    Matthew 7:13-14
    "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

    Throughout the Bible record, God clearly and demonstratively condemns the worship of any god's other than himself. It is clear that God does not view salvation as broad or relative.
    Salvation comes through faith that God is who he said he is and will do what he says he will do. It was belief that was credited to Abraham as righteousness. It is faith in the person of Jesus Christ that saves us.
    The law and the prophets were not given to provide salvation, but rather to reveal our need for redemption. The sacrifices of the Jews were not given but as a picture of the sacrifice God would make when he bound himself in human flesh, walked blamelessly before us as a model of his love acted out. Love to the point of death. That is the call on everyone who would follow Christ.
    A final thought...

    Jeremiah 2:11
    "Has a nation changed gods
    When they were not gods?
    But My people have changed their glory
    For that which does not profit."

  • AhHah
    AhHah

    Welcome Theophilus.

    Thanks for introducing yourself with your response to this survey.

    You seem to have a good knowledge of the Bible -- your points were well stated from a Biblical perspective. I have found that the active posters here are also well versed in Scripture.

    You may have noticed though, if you have been reading some recent posts, that some of us are no longer convinced that God is completely and accurately revealed in the Bible, or that the entire Bible is necessarily from God or the Creator.

    I couldn't help but be curious about your reasons for posting on a JW forum, since you said that you have not attended their meetings. You are more than welcome, it is just unusual, and I was wondering if you would like to share your reasons. Do you have any other favorite forums that you enjoy reading or posting?

    Again, welcome!

  • Theophilus
    Theophilus

    Well. I appreciate the welcome. This was actually the first thread I've read here. I can see that most of you have been deply affected by your withdrawl from the Society. Allow me to explain myself...

    I was raised in a Methodist chuch which was, for all intents and purposes, more of a political platform than a place to find truth. Disenchanted, my family left that church when I was a youngster. We were out of church for a long time, still believing in Christ, but not in a fellowship until I was in the sixth grade. At that time, we became involved in the church We ( my wife and I) currently attend. I must explain that I am what is sometimes regarded as a "primitivist." I believe that the purest form of Christianity is to be found at the beginning. A lot of this is covered by the epistles and the books of Acts and Revelations. There is also some to be found in the extra biblical writings of the early Church fathers here's a goods site for research in this line http://www.ccel.org
    My belief in Christ is not born from religeon. I would not consider myself religeous. I love God and have dedicated my life to a service relationship with him. Man is guilty of many perversions and misuse of God's words: the crusades and the inquisition are only two examples. Every one who goes to war invokes that God is on their side. It doesn't mean their right. It means they're smart enough to use God's name to rally the commoner. It's sick, really.
    Why am I posting on a JW board having never been a JW?
    Well, about 2-3 months ago My wifa and I were out in the yard when a man and a woman approached us and announced "Hi. We're doing the work of the Lord."
    To which my wife responded "So are we."
    They ignored her response and moved into a conversational (I hesitate to say "pitch" for fear of offending, but I don't know how else to describe it. I know you'll understand). We had a lengthy conversation comparing translation and meaning in some key passages. Then, when I percieved they were tired of me asking questions, they left us a pamphlet and a promise to come back. I reviewed the pamphlet, made some notes and started really digging into the Word. Reading key passages in the original languages (with the help of transliterated versions and such; I'm no Greek or Hebrew scholar) that sort of thing. Then I began to research the history and doctrines of the Watchtower and was absolutely flabbergasted by the frequent pendulum swings in doctrine and the midstream changes in their translations of the scriptures. I was amazed and heart broken. I continued my research and came across a site which described in detail one woman's struggle with being an outcast in her own family because she questioned a few points. God broke my heart for this woman.

    I've gone on to read a number of the other postings and have come to realize that my initial posting may have come across as arrogant or uncaring. I can assure you, if I didn't care, I would not have posted in the first place.
    I'm broken hearted that so many of you were subjected to the sufferings Iv'e read about. Men using God's name to cut one another or to oppress one another.
    God's word is freedom, not chains.
    God's word is a strong ally, not a decietful assasin. It is for building up and encouraging.
    I can see how the twisting and misuse of His word has caused so much pain.
    Well. I hope that sheds some light on my heart.
    I am your servant.

  • AhHah
    AhHah

    Thanks for being so open and kind. Your post did not seem arrogant or uncaring to me. I appreciate the obvious caring behind your post.

    You are correct in observing the intense pain that many good-hearted persons have endured at the hands of family and close friends. That certainly has a powerful effect on one's impressions of God, the Bible and religion. Some here have managed to hold on to some or all of their faith. Some have not. I appreciate that all who currently post here are respectful of others' opinions, even if they disagree. That is saying much about the character of those who post, since few topics provoke more emotional response than God and religion -- especially considering what we have and are going through. I always try to remember how passionately I defended positions in the past, which I no longer believe now. Sometimes I don't succeed, and I am afraid that I state myself a little too strongly. Let me apologize in advance if I do.

    Thanks again for sharing your reasons for posting.

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    Welcome Theo

    It will be nice to have someone with a Christian perspective that hasn't been tainted by the WTS.

    Your experience illustrates the difficulties the WT organization will have as people do research on the internet.

    Look forward to reading your comments.

    Path

  • Scorpion
    Scorpion

    Hello Theophilus,

    I enjoyed your post and scriptural insight. It is always nice to see someone who was never in the Watchtower Society reach out to those that have been or still are.

    I would like to ask you a few questions if it is alright.

    Do you believe one can have a relationship with the true God without having knowledge of the scriptures?

    Do you believe that Jehovah's Witnesses will be judged adversely by God for believing what the WT teaches?

    Do you believe a Jehovah's Witness can have a good and true relationship with God through his Son Jesus even though still in the WT?

    I am interested in your opinion.

    Thank you for caring.

  • Seven
    Seven

    Theophilus, Welcome. It's good to have you here. Seven

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