Notes from a Recent Discussion with a relative of why I am not an active JW anymore.

by JakeM2012 59 Replies latest members adult

  • JakeM2012
    JakeM2012

    I recently went on a seven day trip with a relative/friend who is an elder in his late 60’s. We had a very good time. While away we visited a couple we mutually knew who is in their 70’s and the couple said they were just studying their Watchtower for Sunday. The wife said, “Another study with interpretations of scriptures that there is no way if you just read the Bible that you would come up with their reasoning”. I was somewhat surprised, but I’ve always thought that she was in the “truth” because of her husband. Anyway…

    My friend asked if they had read the new light in the July 15, 2013 Watchtower and they explained that they had not yet received the printed magazines at the Hall. My friend explained the point from the article that the 144,000 would all be in heaven when Armageddon started. They excitedly asked about other points. My friend who had only read the July WT once couldn’t remember well enough to explain much else. I listened and then said, “To summarize, many things that we used to believe happened in 1914 have not happened yet, but the major change was that the Faithful and Discreet slave is the Governing Body, not the anointed remnant.” They looked somewhat confused.

    Fast forward to the last night driving home. It was early in the morning and we had been driving all night but were within two hours from my house and Bill asked, “Jake, I wanted to ask you about your beard.” “I was shocked when you came out to greet me. I’ve been in the truth along time and I know when someone has a beard it means they are either coming in the truth or they are leaving it.” He said, “I know that you have been a spiritually strong person and I love you a lot, but I’m concerned.” “Jake”, he asked, “What’s going on?”

    I thought for a bit and was silent and then replied, “Bill, I would like to keep my thoughts private, but you have been a true friend so I will tell you my concerns. But I don’t want you to think that I am trying to influence you in any way and I really don’t want you sharing my thoughts with anyone else in the family, this conversation is between you and me only.”

    I told him that since I had moved that I had more time to study and meditate and that it was about 2007-08 that a sister had given me some older Watchtower publications. I spoke of reading the Studies in the Scriptures by C.T. Russell and asked if he knew that the early Bible Students believed that the time of the end began in 1799 and that Armageddon was supposed to be in 1874? I continued, “Later Armageddon was adjusted to several other dates and eventually 1914. I asked if he had ever read “Millions now living will never die?” and he said no. I explained that I had an original copy and that my great-great grandparents traveled for five years living on the road selling the publication. I explained to him that 1925 was the new predicted date of Armageddon which was confidently stated to be “undeniable truth”. I said, “Millions now living (in 1925) are dead!” His reply was that when they are resurrected they will be living, and I replied, “The booklet said they would never die.”

    I continued explaining, “I lived through the 1975 era, and both our families had made drastic life changing decisions based on the end coming in 1975.” Many in our family had quit good paying jobs and had moved to serve where the need was great. Before 1975, if you wouldn’t teach the end coming in 1975 as fact you could be removed as an elder, but after 1975, if you ever mentioned it you were being negative”. I informed him that one of my relatives had been removed as a book study conductor because he would not teach 1975. I continued, “In 1984, on the cover of the Watchtower there was a picture of older witnesses and the title of the article was “This generation will by no means pass away”. I said, “All on that WT cover are all dead now”.

    I continued, that there was excitement during the 1980’s and 90’s because the generation that saw the beginning of the time of the end was growing close to the 80 years of a “generation”, and that we had expectation that the end would come before the end of the century. I related that “My father told me in 1954 there was expectation that the end would come because at that time the generation was understood to be 40 years, and 40 years from 1914 was 1954. I then told him that this last change in 2010 about an overlapping generation is the “most absurd thing I’ve ever heard”.

    I then said, “Jehovah’s Witnesses are an end time religion, and their teachings have an expiration date that is expired, and I felt that all these changes in the July 15 th WT and the recent understanding of the “generation” are reactionary to the fact that nothing has happened as they have taught, so the GB has to come up with some other explanation”. “The expression new light is just a self-serving diplomatic way of saying that we had it wrong before.” The new July Watchtower states that 1914 was the beginning of the time of distress of the nations, not the time of the end. I then informed Bill that I had not been to a meeting in over four years and the last district convention I attended was in 2010, (I didn’t tell him I only went Sunday). But the Brother giving the Sunday public talk at the District Convention was proclaiming how the end of this system was so imminent, that time is short and the situation is urgent. I said, “The brother giving the talk was excited, but his delivery of the information made me question whether he even believe the “imminence” himself.”

    My friend said, “Well, this is an organization of imperfect people, and didn’t the disciples in the first century have wrong expectations?” He continued, “We are trying to stay alert and fit the puzzle of current events to the bible prophesies that we know are related to the time of the end.” I said, “Yes, the disciples did have wrong expectations, but Jesus was there performing miracles and many of the apostles were able to performed miracles also. The organization today has never said that we are just trying to put these things together and we might be wrong. They dogmatically state that they are God’s sole channel to mankind. I then asked, “Do you think that a loving God would tease people for 130 years?” I then said, “Bill, we have been on a Watchtower snipe hunt for 130 years!” I continued, “Moses had miracles to perform to prove to the nation of Israel that he was sent by God, Jesus performed miracles to prove he was God’s Son. But for us, we have no proof that Watchtower is God’s sole channel to mankind other than their self-proclamation.

    I then brought up that Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that the Jesus is the mediator only to the 144,000. I said that the Bible states, “that Christ died for all men”, and yet Watchtower puts in brackets (Not all men) and states that the ransom applies only to the 144,000. Jesus also said that to receive everlasting life that we had to go through him, he didn’t say that we had to go through some other mediator like the Governing Body.

    I then said, “I talked to your brother in 2004 about the rumor that Watchtower had joined the United Nations; your brother looked at me and said, there is no way that Watchtower joined the U.N.” He said “that would be apostasy”, and I agreed with him, but I didn’t have any proof at that of WT’s being an NGO. So in 2008 I did some research about it and went to the U.N. website and I have a copy of the letter on one of my computers, and the U.N. states yes Watchtower was a member from 1991 to 2001 and that they agreed to the terms and conditions of membership. I said, ”Bill, it is an act of apostasy if someone joins the YMCA, but Watchtower can go join the U.N. for 10 years along with the Catholic church and other religions, and it’s ok.” He said, well, you wouldn’t want to be part of Babylon the great would you joining the YMCA?” I said, “Bill, you’re missing the point, you can’t take swimming lessons or use the gym at the YMCA, an organization that has a bible in the front foyer and they want to encourage bible principles to young people, but Watchtower can join the U.N. and be on the back of the Wild Beast with the Harlot.”

    He asked who I felt God was using. I replied, I don’t know, but my faith in this organization is shot, and I don’t see any evidence that Jehovah’s Witnesses are anything special. He then asked, “what about the preaching of the good news, who’s doing that? I said, “Well, it depends on what we call the good news, in the first century the good news was that Jesus was resurrected”. But I reasoned, “what good news do I have to share with anyone in the door to door ministry?” “Not one thing that we have expected has come true and now Watchtower is frantically making changes to all the beliefs that we had” to adjust for their expired interpretations. What we used to believe is obviously not correct and now we have new light that could be old light within our lifetime or even just a few years.

    He asked me if the end did come what I thought Jehovah would do with me and my family. I said, “I’ll take my chances with him, I still have a personal relationship with him and Jesus, but as far as following the leadership of Watchtower, it’s over for me”.

    These are some of the things I remember about our conversation. When I got finished he didn’t have much to say, he remained friendly but was quiet for the rest of the night. He left to go home the next morning as friendly as ever. I am curious about our future relationship. I’m sure that it is a only temporary, but who knows. Once the mind has been expanded it can never return to the previous state.

  • 3dogs1husband
    3dogs1husband

    this reads like an old time radio broadcast - very well written and easy to follow - infact i would love some people to read it!!!! <3 hope it got thru!!!

  • Julia Orwell
    Julia Orwell

    That's a lot of information! It might take a while for your friend's mind to process it all. But he can't unhear ttatt. I hope you and he can remain friends, free from wt.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    I am sure too that much of what you said will register, at least in his sub-conscious, all of a sudden he will find himself calling "Bull****" on many of the WT's claims.

    I do hope he respects your request for confidentiality, I trusted an old friend and he blabbed, within a few days I got the "Two Elder" visit. (Of course, no Elder had visited me in all the months since I had stopped attending, until they thought they could DF me).

    Well done, you did very well in showing that all your concerns about the WT are genuine, this makes JW's think too, they cannot accuse you of having a secret motive for being inactive, so they have to address your concerns in their minds.

  • Jaidubdub
    Jaidubdub

    Very well said. Hopefully what you told him will be enough for him to start thinking rather than just believing everything this organisation tells him. Please let us know what happens...

  • GromitSK
    GromitSK

    Very well-written.

  • Kensei01
    Kensei01

    Very informative and logical thinking. Well done. Nice progression of thinking that leads the listener to the only conclusion. I wonder what he would have thought of the "vaccination" debacle before the blood issue? And you hit the nail on the head with your emphasizing that the GB has always said it is god's SOLE channel of communication; and therein lies the inherent problem with all of the their jejeune predictions. Thanks for sharing your information.

    Kensei

  • SafeAtHome
    SafeAtHome

    Very thoughtful and calm reasoning. Once in a while I print out and keep some of these postings...this will be one of them. Thank you Jake. I have many family still in and although they never start an inquiring conversation, this will help me be prepared if they ever do.

  • goodsoul
    goodsoul

    I liked this conversation overall, especially explanation about preaching of the good news.
    Thanks for sharing!

  • Quandry
    Quandry

    Very tactfully put! Even if he says nothing, it may stay in the back of his mind.

    On the other hand, he may wish to part friends but never see you again. Let's hope the former not the latter.

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