"Daniel, the government is notorious for being wasteful. If I thought for one minute that 'paying more taxes' would give citizens a better quality of life, I'd be all over it.
All the taxes in the world didn't help New Orleans."
I whole-heartedly agree with you. But that is THIS government, not government in general. After all, the USA was originally a big experiment. They didn't know if it would work. There will be a big spiral of tradegy in realizing endless consumption and waste cannot continue much longer.
Health Care: A Right or a Privilege?
by prophecor 401 Replies latest members politics
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daniel-p
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fairchild
LDH believe me, I have tried hard to get health insurance, without results. You seem to think that people without insurance either don't seem to know where to go and get it, or are too lazy to get their ass in gear and set things in motion. Such is not true. There ARE people out there who make "too much" to get affordable insurance and who don't make enough to get regular insurance. Last year at work, TWELVE of us, workers, got together to figure out a way to get insurance ecause none of the employees has benefits where I work. We figured there must be a way, somehow, somewhere.. we did research, went to places, made calls, made appointments, etc.. We compared our findings.. out of the twelve, four people managed to get some sort of basic coverage for a decent price, the other 8 did not seem to be eligible for anything. So, between the 12 of us it's not like as if we didn't try. If you know more than 12 people who have done a lot of research on it and have gone out of their way to get themselves covered in case they'd get ill, please do tell. All I know is that each case is different and I do not believe for one second that EVERYONE in America can get health insurance. Of the 43 million Americans without insurance, don't you think that at least a few thousand of them have gone to every possible place to get it?
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LDH
We must admit that there is something very wrong with the American health care system all around. If it was so great, this thread would not even exist.
You got that right. But it didn't just turn into a big business overnight. Insurance has ALWAYS been big business and is one of the original "boys club" industries that is left.
Of the 43 million Americans without insurance, don't you think that at least a few thousand of them have gone to every possible place to get it?
Yes, but I don't presume to assume who belongs to that few thousand. I know for a fact, some people are just plain LAZY and want things handed to them on a silver platter. The Entitlement attitude. If that does not include you, there is no reason to defend their position.
And Daniel, I agree with you. Americans are NOTORIOUS for over consumption of natural resources, and we take up more than our fair share of this planet. If I thought there was a government that worked better than ours, I would most likely move there.
The one thing we have in our favor is that we can openly criticise ANYONE in our government and call for change, and I'm not so sure everyone else can. Putin's right hand man just resigned yesterday, but not before bitch-slapping him and telling him that USSR was slipping back to the old ways that almost led to its downfall.
The complexities of insurance are an obstacle course for sure. HIPAA, COBRA, AB1672, the new Medicare Part D, ERISA, TEFRA, and on and on. It's Greek to a lot of people, but that's what Brokers are there for. Don't forget that they can help you too.
Lisa
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LDH
Fairchild,
Last year at work, TWELVE of us, workers, got together to figure out a way to get insurance ecause none of the employees has benefits where I work.
Outrageous. How large is your employer, and in what state? You can PM me if you wish.
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stillconcerned
Thanks Lisa--
That's good information.(the link re insurance...)
I am self-insured, and i insure my firm and employees. It's not easy, but it's right.
Health care is a privilege, in my opinion.
As to the comment re "lose the right to sue", i guess that applies when the doc cuts off the wrong leg, and leaves the cancer-ridden one intact? And has a history, kept carefully concealed by peer-review, of similar grossly poor medical care? Happened right here in my fair city..... this year.
Is that woman, now legless and dying of complications, responsible for 'picking her doc'?
There's always another side to the story.
Kimberlee D. Norris
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sammielee24
When people say the "governement" should pay for things, I sometimes wonder if they know there is no such thing as 'government'. It is made up of hard working people like myself and millions of others who are paying a significant portion of our income in taxes so that all citizens can at the least have a basic security blanket. You'll never hear me complain about taxes, because I think they are a necessary evil, but I also don't think government services should provide more than a basic security blanket of services in this capitalistic society. The money isn't magically printed, it's taken out of my check and everyone else's check who works.
And taxes are taken proportionately from those who also work at lower paying jobs thus putting them in the same boat - the difference is that those at the lower end of the scale simply cannot afford after taxes to pay for health insurance. Socialized health care derived from taxes is not a bad thing - I'm sure a capitalistic society, despite having health care for all, can continue to find ways to spend their money. No one is saying that the neighbour next door can't have a bigger boat, or 3 cars in the driveway..no one is saying that family X can't take a cruise or buy that big plasma TV - but just because they can afford a bigger boat, 3 cars, cruises and the latest gadget or technology, shouldn't mean that they are any more deserving of medical attention. I'm sure that even people incarcerated at some level in the penal system are assured of better health care than the average working stiff who falls between the cracks. I suppose if we wanted to say that the government is the people - then perhaps it is time that the millions of people who have no health care stand up and make some noise. Of course reality checks in when you have to accept that even with all that noise - it might not over ride the handshaking and slick palms. sw
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wednesday
I think a government has the obligation to care for those who cannot care for themselves. This is what separates us from the animal kingdom. Animals just leave those who cannot survive to die., . The disabled, physically or mentally, sick elderly ,deserve decent care. They should not be left to die. I also believe that all should have access to medical care. This medical care does not have to cover everything, but should provide good basic care, ability to get medicine and coverage for surgeries and chronic and acute illness. It is is a disgrace that persons in USA often cannot afford basic healthcare for preventable/ treatable diseases. One should not have to wait until they are in a crisis and have to go to the ER before they get healthcare. I remember my mother and farther begging doctors for medical care for me and my sibling. You don't know what it does to your soul until you have to beg for food, clothes, shelter, or medical care..The only people in America who don't think we have a crisis are those who have enough cash to pay as they go, or have never had a chronic or acute illness that drains them of every cent they have.
I recall in the 80's when HIV first became public, Many previously middle to high income persons became so ill they could not work and were forced to rely on the county hospitals. Soon there were articles in the xxxxxx paper about the way the poor are treated at the local county hospitals. These people ( the previously middle class patients and reporters ) were shocked. Well, the poor were not shocked. They were used to being treated like cattle and abused. It was just something you had to do to get medical care. A lot of America does not know that the poor are frequently verbally abused(and worse) and offered far less choices for medical care. They are often treated less than human.
My family works, and we pay over $600 a month for health insurance, just for the two of us. It still does not pay 100% (it pays 90%) of the bill and more and more healthcare facilites are requiring the copays /co-insurance/deductibles upfront before they will do labs, or xrays ,medical procedures,etc. The reason is obivious - so many people can't pay the deductibles, copays, or co-insurance. We had to cancel a necessary medical procedure b/c the coinsurance was so high. So, we have insurance, but b/c the deductibles /copays/co-insurance are so high, it is not helping us very much. . But we are nowhere , not even close, poor enough for medicad, The amount of money you can make to qualify for those programs is extremely low.. We are the working poor. We are not lazy, stupid or greedy. We don't use drugs, we are not morbidly obese, we don't drink alcohol to ecxcess, we don't smoke. We live a very sober life. My family of orgin never dreamt of using welfare or anything like that. My father died in his 70's but he was working until he was so ill he could not. I believe in hard work. I don't want to give lazy people anything. But if a person is unable to work for legitimate reasons, the government has a responsibility to its citizens .. No one should have to choose between necessary medicine or utilites, food. I'm not advocating a free ride for anyone. But neither should the few social programs we have be so hard to qualify for that they deny help to those that need it. Often middle America is under the illusion that it is so easy to get governemnt benefits. It is not.. The application process is frequently very difficult, thereby elimanating many who qualify, but can'tunderstand the procedures involved.
I felt in the 04 presidental election the pressing problem we had as a nation was security. In 08 i'll be looking for someone who cleans up healthcare and does something about the insurance companies who now tell our doctors what medicines or procedures they can order. I'll be looking for someone who understands the plight of the working poor.
Weds
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fairchild
LDH,
There are about a total of 60 employees where I work. It is in New York state.
Our schedules are somewhat strange and I think that this has something to do with the fact that only a few could get health insurance. Like, during the busy time (July and August, and parts of September) we often work up to 70 hours a week or even more. Then during the other months, business goes way down and most work between 15 and 25 hours a week. We usually put money aside in summertime to get us through wintertime.
Amoung the 60 employees, about half of them are occasional workers, they only work when needed. Their schedule can vary from 5 hours a week to 50 hours a week.
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sammielee24
In 08 i'll be looking for someone who cleans up healthcare and does something about the insurance companies who now tell our doctors what medicines or procedures they can order. I'll be looking for someone who understands the plight of the working poor.
I believe that this is where the change must come into play. As I said, there will always be a 3% or so of any population that will abuse any system but people are by and far honest and deserving. I think its time that people start demanding to know where the money is going and why and to start demanding that the country unify on these basic issues instead of this being a free for all society where the rich survive at the cost of all others. The opportunity to move the poor or less fortunate or very simply the middle class now, into the back room has never been more evident than the eminent domain situations that have sprung up around the country - and I'm thinking most specifically of the Florida take over. I just received a call as we speak from my BIL - a construction worker who was hurt on the job - he went to the hospital but he has no health care insurance so the hospital bandaged his hand and told him to go home and wait until they could get workers comp to sign the papers for him to receive additional care. It appears that he almost severed his thumb and the tendons are damaged but so he sits until the paperwork can be accomodated. With the emphasis on preventative medicine and with the mantra of being proactive and not reactive becoming catch phrases - would it simply not be more prudent and cost efficient, as well as more compassionate and unified to ensure that all the citizens of the great country have access to solid, non prejudicial health care? The same people who insist they would not treat anyone with prejudice and decry the same attitude in others, need to recognize that by virtue of slamming the door on someone who cannot afford medical service, they have done just that. sw.
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LDH
No one is saying that the neighbour next door can't have a bigger boat, or 3 cars in the driveway..no one is saying that family X can't take a cruise or buy that big plasma TV - but just because they can afford a bigger boat, 3 cars, cruises and the latest gadget or technology, shouldn't mean that they are any more deserving of medical attention.
In prinicple I agree with you. This nation has two health care systems.
1. A Cadillac
2. A Yugo
Both will theoretically get you where you are going. Just because you have a Yugo today does not mean you cannot have a Cadillac tomorrow, and vice versa.
a construction worker who was hurt on the job - he went to the hospital but he has no health care insurance
If you are saying his employer does not offer benefits, shame on him or her. For one, this strikes me as odd. One of the reasons that Work Comp premiums have skyrocketed is because of employers who do not offer health benefits to their employees. Now, if you work for someone like that, and you get hurt, when you go to the hospital, of course you are going to say you got hurt on the job! (Not that your BIL didn't). One of the ways Comp carriers are able to be competitive on premiums is when working with an employer who has great health benefits. Otherwise, the Comp carrier knows they are going to be seeing an awful lot of 'work related injuries.' This is most likely the reason your BIL was returned to get his comp papers authorized. Otherwise, the hospital knows they've just got another charity case on their hands.
We are not lazy, stupid or greedy. We don't use drugs, we are not morbidly obese we don't drink alcohol to ecxcess, we don't smokeWe live a very sober life
Neither do the majority of working folks, me included. You can not remove from the equation, at some point, people have made choices which forces them into certain situations.
That's all I'm saying. I don't feel I should have to pay for someone else gambling in order for them to avoid paying the piper. I believe all citizens should have a basic standard of health care available as a SAFETY NET. I don't think every welfare bum or working poor is entitled to LASIK eye surgery or ZOOM tooth whitening.
Shit, in my family we use generics all the time, go to the Dr. only when necessary, and don't burden the health care system with unnecessary ER visits. Why shouldn't we expect government aid recipients do the same? I think this is one reason people aren't so quick to empathize with those on government aid, they do expect the same level of services as a private citizen with resources would have. The Government services are merely a SAFETY NET. They are a Yugo.
I wish we could tag a premium on Medical services, say something of a pittance like $5 a month for health care services, taken directly from your TANF or whatever cash aid you need, so the recipient would see it is not free. Something for Something is always worth more than Something for NOTHING.
Lisa