Americans?

by MrMoe 101 Replies latest jw friends

  • Shakita
    Shakita

    I am no great historian. And, after spending the last 25 years waiting for Jehovah to come and fix up the mess he let accumulate since the day he decided to gather some dust together to make a man in his image, I am now trying to get a little more involved in the "real world." What is so great about this forum is that we get to hear how the real "joe" feels over there across the ocean without the prejudices of politically correct news agencies, newpapers or televsion. That all said, here are some quotes from Kenneth Pollack, one of the world's leading experts on Iraq. He was an analyst on Iraq for the CIA and the National Security Council. Yes, he is an American. But, nevertheless, he has some interesting things to say about the world's involvement in Saddam's removal from power.

    Great Britain-"London is under no illusions about the problems Saddam's regime could cause if it is someday free to do as it likes, and since it is the US that will have to bear the serious costs, Blair is willing to go along if we are serious enough to do it right. That said, the British are sticklers about international law and often have a much higher legal threshold for military action against Iraq than does the US. Consequently, London would very much like to have a clear green light from the United Nations before launching into new military operations against Iraq." Voted "yes" for resolution and stands besides the US against the dictator in Iraq.

    France-"is one of the Iraq's chief advocates and, while still a NATO ally of the US, believes that taking an "independent" line is critical to French stature and the good of the world. In addition, Iraq owes France $4.5 billion from pre-Gulf War sales. France is also one of Iraq's largest trading partners. To be blunt, the French have not hesitated to compromise their principles if it meant a greater share of Iraqi trade." More said on this subject, but too much to type out here. "..if France becomes convinced that the US is absolutely determined to remove Saddam and is willing to use all of its power to do the job, they likely will flip and become supporters of the operation to try to secure some piece of post-Saddam Iraq's trade and reconstruction." Not a very high opinion of France's integrity here by Pollack. Remember I am just quoting. Again, in the last days, voted "yes" for the resolution.

    Russia-"has been Iraq's strongest advocate since the Gulf War and has been rewarded with a heallthy slice of Iraq's oil-for-food contracts, vying with France for the top slot during each round of contracting. Iraq owes Russia $8 billion from pre-Gulf War sales, mostly for military equipment. The Russians have signed numerous long-term contracts with Iraq for the development of Iraqi oil fields, infrastructure, and other lucrative projects. Consequently, Russia has quite a bit at stake with Saddam Hussein's regime. What's more, post-Soviet Russia hates to see the US throw its weight around the world and therefore tends to oppose American military moves for geopolitical reasons as well." "...if the US makes it clear that it has the will and the regional support to get the job done, Moscow(like Paris) will have a huge incentive to try to secure its economic interests in the inevitable post-Saddam world. The Russians might not be willing to contribute an armored division to such an effort(and the US military would not want it) but they might be willing to be helpful in other ways-perhaps even in the United Nations." Guess the US found that help from Russia they needed. Attacking Russia and France's integrity here? Russia voted "yes".

    China-"will probably end up opposing any US policy on Iraq. Beijing vehemently opposes any use of American military force, and the idea of the US forcibly overthrowing another regime is anathema to the Chinese-whose record on human rights and WMD(weapons of mass destruction) is probably closer to Iraq's than to Sweden's. Like Russia's and France's, China's advocacy of Iraq over the years has paid off in large oil-for-food contracts as well as some hefty illegal contracts, such as the construction of a fiber-optic communications network for Iraqi military and internal security forces." "...the Chinese will also likely oppose any efforts by the US to create a new containment regime that will patch up the holes in the current sanctions." Again, China voted "yes" for the resolution.

    Pollack also gives his views on ..."America's other core allies, such as Canada, Australia, and Japan, can be expected to be as supportive as Britain and the northern European countries or more so in terms of a more robust policy. All of them would probably prefer a revamped form of containment, if only because they would all find regime change somewhat unpalatable for one reason or another." "In the end, all would likely go along with a military compaign if the US made clear its commitment and willingness to pay the costs and rebuild Iraq afterward."

    Some of the above is Pollacks personal opinion. The rest is fact. I found this book to be very enlightening.

    I do not advocate war. My mother had a brother who came back from WWII. She asked him "What did you do over there?" She was very young and would ask this question over and over again. He would not answer her. One day he could take it no more and said to her "I KILLED PEOPLE, NOW LEAVE ME ALONE!" She never talked about his time in the war again. My mother also lost another brother in that war. His body was never found.

    No one wants war. But, I fear for the world if ruthless and cruel dictators, like Saddam, are not dealt with in a swift and decisive matter. Will it take a mushroom cloud over a major city anywhere on this planet to "stop the bully from hurting others on the playground?"

    In my opinion, all political correctness put aside, the UN Security Council passed the resolution because they see a "mushroom cloud" on the horizon if Saddam is allowed to continue his reign. Let's hope and pray that they get rid of him (war or not) before we see it.

    Mrs. Shakita

  • og
    og
    You do not know what you are talking about and all of your name calling and/or four letter words will not change that.

    What are you saying? That there is no connection between our military adventures abroad and our wasteful, materialistic standard of living? That every foreign involvement was altruistic? Do you have any idea how naive that is?

    When I lived in California, I saw undocumented workers treated like crap, picking lettuce and broccoli. Then I went to the store and bought cheap lettuce and broccoli. Which part of that is hard for you to understand? Or do you see no connection?

  • jurs
    jurs

    Og,

    Sure the US has an obligation to help and yes it has caused destruction and as you pointed out to Borgfree that its an imposibility to become an isolationist, I'm simply saying its also an impossibility not to meddle. Our world is so closely linked that we're all affected by one another. All countries meddle to the degree that they have the power to. And ALL countries would do what is in their best interest even if its to anothers great disadvantage or grief. Its too bad but thats how it is now and has been in the past. As a whole I think the world would fare far worse with a different Super Power.

    Og, Be glad you can say your unflattering 2 cents (although correct) about the country you live in. Not all places could you enjoy such freedom. Our country is guilty of much but its also done much good. Unfortunately, I think many Americans don't appreciate what we have, There is no perfect paradise on earth where every govt. and thing is just. (except the new system) There is a balance between seeing the faults as well as seeing the commendable qualities. Your right to vote and freedom of speech. .

    jurs

  • borgfree
    borgfree

    Og,

    I am leaving for work so I will make this short, for now.

    Your statement:

    You idiot. We live off them. Our food system, for example, depends on cheap labor by undocumented workers. All of our goods and our cheap oil depend on systematic oppression of weaker countries.

    When did these super-laborers come to this country? How on earth did we survive while we were waiting for them to sneak over our borders and save us? It has been claimed, on this board, that the country was built on the backs of slaves, which is it? slaves or migrant workers who built this country?

    And, BTW, if they could build this country into the greatest super-power the world has ever known, why did they not stay home and build their own countries into a world power instead of them still being third world countries?

    There are many such questions, but, you can think of them for yourself, if, you can get past the indoctrination of the socialists/communists who have taught you in our disgraceful school system.

    In the mean time, I will suffer with poverty and still deport all illegal aliens.

    Borgfree

  • Dia
    Dia

    I LOVE this thread, tho I'll have to return and give it a better read. Just want to say a few things quickly.

    Mother Teresa has said that, 'America is the lonliest place on earth'. I think that she is correct.

    Did you know that.....3 out of 5 Americans move every 4 years?! (I would say that is downright TRANSIENT).

    Fifteen percent of Americans are illiterate (this inflames me)

    'Bad food and lots of it.'

    'New' is better than 'better''.

    There is a truly wonderful book that I read a couple of years ago that all concerned would definitely enjoy.

    There is a series of books called, "Culture Shock!" that is written (one each) for just about every country in the world.

    It is written for people from other countries (numerous other countries) who are planning to live or work in a country for an extended period of time. Not a tourist guide for someone just planning a visit, but a 'culture guide' for people who need to have a deeper and better understanding of the country's culture, its traditions, values and just ordinary old daily life.

    We read these before a couple of great trips and they were EXCELLENT.

    But after awhile, I got to thinking, 'wonder what it would say about OUR COUNTRY!'

    "Culture Shock! USA"

    It is eye-opening. I think everyone ought to read this book.

    It's one of those books that tell you a whole lot of things you already know, but you don't realize you know them.

    It's astonishingly good.

    Let me know if you get it.

  • Robdar
    Robdar
    No one wants war. But, I fear for the world if ruthless and cruel dictators, like Saddam, are not dealt with in a swift and decisive matter. Will it take a mushroom cloud over a major city anywhere on this planet to "stop the bully from hurting others on the playground?"

    Mrs. Shakita,

    I must respectfully disagree with you. This is the same argument that they tried to sell us during the cold war. Contrary to popular opinion at the time, Russia was not a threat to the US. Saddam's possible nuclear missiles are not a threat either. His country would be nuked to tiny little bits, if he was to lob a nuclear warhead at us. What sort of contest would his one or two missiles be? No contest at all.

    It seems to me that the American people would be able to recognize the same old, worn out, propaganda. Only the country's name has been changed.

    Having said all that, I am worried about possible biological warfare from Iraq.

    Robyn

    Edited by - robdar on 21 November 2002 12:23:7

  • avishai
    avishai

    Speaking of swearing & England, australia, & NZ, Why is it that the "c" word is the assault rifle of all swear words in the US, but in relatively common usage in those countries?

  • Shakita
    Shakita

    Hi Robdar:

    Yes, Saddam would be insane to send a nuclear warhead our way. We would not be his target. Isreal would be high up there on that list of targets though. Saddam would not think twice about raining down a warhead on their most hated enemy. There has been satellite footage showing a site in western Iraq with a missile battery stationed there pointed directly in the direction of Isreal. Whether this is an armed missile, I do not know. But considering Iraq's history in sending scud missiles into neighborhoods there, I think Isreal should be worried that these warheads aren't loaded with chemical weapons. The pictures of the many dead Kurds from Northern Iraq shows that Saddam does not give a hoot about what the nations around the world think of him. He will do as he pleases. Power is the ultimate objective of this maniac.

    Sometimes when we sit back in this country eating our McDonalds and playing our Playstation 2 we can not see the big picture.

    Propoganda, or not, we must deal with terrorism in its many forms. Saddam is a terrorist. He must be dealt with now. His people need sanctions lifted. The country must be relieved of a dictator who a megalomaniac. After seeing the pictures of those poor innocent Kurds lying there in the streets, babies, children, young and old, struck down by Saddam's brother, "Chemical Ali", you can think of nothing else.

    Saddam is not the world's only threat. The war on terrorism is worldwide. And, I agree with you, bioterrorism is a greater threat than the nuclear threat from Saddam. But, that doesn't mean we turn a blind eye to the dictator across the ocean.

    I have read many of your posts, Robdar, and want to thank you for your respectful way you answer other's posts. It has been a pleasure to "talk" with you.

    Mrs. Shakita

    Edited by - shakita on 21 November 2002 13:26:28

  • Crazy151drinker
    Crazy151drinker

    Man oh Man, where should I start????

    Lets see WWII. Breaking the Enigma was huge and was done by the British. We thankfully still have Europe and England becuase Hitler was a fool. His Russia blunder is quite obvious. Another blunder was his continual bombardment of London which had no military value. Before the British bombed Berlin, the RAF was almost completly destroyed. After the Berlin bombing, Hitler got his panties in a bun and decided to kill all the Londoners. He completly ignored the RAF! So while the Londoners went through Hell, England was able to rebuild the RAF and with the advent of Radar, systimaticly destroyed the Lufftwafe (I know its not spelled right, I dont write German). If Hitler had stuck with his original plan, the RAF would have been spanked and the invasion could have begun. The V1/V2 missles again showed Hitlers insane obession. While it was a scary weapon, it didnt do that much damage in a military perspective and it absorbed vast amount of German resources. Plus the launching bases were easy to find and destroy.

    Lets not forget Hitler letting Rommel rot in the Desert with no supplies. Rommel was kicking the shit out of the British. But hitler wanted to open yet another front. Even the D-day invasion was a disaster. Rommel wanted the Re-enforcments at the front to repel the invasion, and some other General wanted to keep them way back to defend Germany. Hitler being the genius decided to do neither and put the Panzers in the middle where they were unable to do either.

    Ok.........oh yes Gun Rights.

    Can a Gun Control advocate please explain to me how they believe that criminals will stop using guns if you make them illegal? Well, all crime itself is ILLEGAL and yet they still commit them. Drugs are ILLEGAL and we all know that they are still being used. Making something ILLEGAL does not stop people from doing it. And if you think a murderer is going stop and say, hmmmm I shouldnt use this gun, its illegal! - then you are nuts!!

    We are fortunate to have the BILL OF RIGHTS, its not the BILL OF LIMITATIONS. The BILL OF RIGHTS is applicable to ALL CITIZENS. The 2nd amendmant is for ALL AMERICANS.

    What would happen if guns became illegal?? Do you honestly think people would turn them in? You would have a Civil War on your hands!!! Wake up people, there are 200 Million+ firearms in the United States. They are not going away. Educate yourself and love ones on gun safety and keep them locked up.

    Also, if you look at Cities and States with the Highest rate of murder ie California, New York, LA, Chicago etc..etc.. you will find that they have the Strictest Gun Laws whereas states with the Lowest rate of crime have the most leanient gun laws.

    Now prom,

    The Gold Standard?? You think that for every dollar we print we should have the same amount in Gold to back it up?? Do you realize how much money we print?? What our budget is?? There is not enough gold for that!! If gold ran out would you stop printing money??? You are trying to put limits on economic growth. You have been talking to YK way to much......

    Now all of this Anti-American crap is ridiculous. Yes we have been bad. We wiped out the Indians (but so did the spanish, british, and the french). The Spanish wiped out the indians from central to south america! If we had lost the Revolutionary War do you honestly think the British would have stayed in the 13 colonies?? They would have killed the indians to!!

    All civilizations have had bad areas in their past. Even neutral Sweden used to be a dominating power in the world (and lets not forget the Vikings!!!).

    Now immigration,

    Yes, some people take advantage of it. We need to have tighter controls at the borders. But should we keep them out??? Of course not!!! How many americans have you seen picking grapes??? How many americans want to work in slaughter houses?? How many americans clean toilets??? We need immigrants to do shit jobs that we wont do. When my family immigrated in the early 1900's they had the Shit jobs. Be it Irish, Swedish, Italian, German, Chinese, whatever, the first generation allways gets the shit jobs. The generations after them then move up the economic chain. So as much as some of the Border Brothers dirve me nuts here in cali, they are the ones that picked my food. Anyone here want to pick grapes in 110 degree weather for horrible wages???? Didnt think so....

    And this whole, the rich rule, the poor are stuck, no middle class, its bullshit. If your lazy, you'll stay poor. If you bust your ass and work you can do what ever you want. It just takes effort and sacrafice.

    Ok, im done preaching............

  • Country Girl
    Country Girl

    There's nothing surprising about Americans. We all, despite what the media puts out, want the same thing as you. We want a peaceful homeland in which to speak our voice, raise our famililes, make a living. Is that surprising? It shouldn't be. We're no different from you. What our government does is a LOT different from what we want. Just as it is with you. We VOTE them into government.. but after awhile they are lulled by the cash of movements.. and they begin to vote in favor of the movements. They're fooling us as much as they are fooling you. We *do* want peace.

    Most Amerians are good people. That could be seen right after 9/11 when we poured fourth our $ and our blood to help everyone. They were turning us away at the doors. Americans are very generous. Do you know that we have our OWN homeless people that are starving in the streets, our own children who have nothing to eat.. and yet we still give most of our tax money to support other countries? Does that make sense? What is wrong with *that* picture? We provide billions of dollars to help other countries with their health problems (mostly HIV), providing money and troops to slavic countries so they won't be exterminated? And what we get is disdain from these armed countries? It's a crazy world... thta's for sure. We give billions of dollars to the world outside of our borders to help people that are having problems and all we get is a kick in the butt. What they say is to not bite the h and that feeds you.

    We have millions of Amercians paying taxes so that YOUR world can be free.. of harm, of violence, of rape.... and you would have the nerve to spit on us. That's okay.. cuz you moight spit on us one too many times. We might have the chance to find out how well this money would work in OUR world.

    CG

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