doubts and shunning....shepherding call (page 3)

Magnum

I said I thought there were lots of sincere people outside JWs and I hope that if this is the truth then Jehovah will make the choice a lot, lot clearer before the end. That I just can't believe a loving God would kill 999 out of 1000. Does someone deserve to die because they were too busy to talk to us on a Saturday morning? It peed me off because the elder said that people in often worked territory have already had a good chance, I said 'they have absolutely no idea what they're saying no too'.

Good point about making "the truth" a lot, lot clearer. I've been thinking a lot lately about exactly what it is that's supposed to let people know that JWs have the one and only truth and that people have to become JWs to gain God's approval and survive the imminent end of the world. If JWs are what they say they are, then their message should be a whole lot clearer and they should be a whole lot easier to identify. A lot of their preaching/warning amounts to stuff like some clueless JW offering an Awake! article on the history of roller skating.

He said categorically 'we cannot disfellowship anyone for having different private opinions on matters, only if they spread it around and try to encourage others to go against the society's teachings'. Is this true?

I think that is false. See material below. It is from pg 342 of Crisis of Conscience. It is an excerpt from a 1980 Watchtower letter to CO's and DO's.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Magnum

millie210: They dont even understand what is coming down the pipe with all this doctrine dancing so how can they enforce it fairly?

I used to be an expert on JW policy and doctrine. Now, I wouldn't even want to attempt to be. It's so changing and unclear. A lot of elders didn't know/understand it when it was clearer, so it's got to be much worse now.

LisaRose

There are some nice elders out there, it's good that they seem to like you and want to help you. Just be careful, many have had elders be understanding with them at first, but then quickly become irritated when they didn't accept the usual JW excuses and third grade logic. I think on some level elders often know there is some validity to these questions, and people can get very annoyed when they are proven wrong. Just tread carefully.

Re: Mistakes on a local level

That might work if you didn't know about the many child abuse lawsuits that are ongoing. If it is just "mistakes at a local level" why did the Watchtower itself refuse to provide discovery documentation requested by the court in a recent case? Why didn't the witness being subpoenaed show up? They were fined millions because of it, so obviously they have something to hide that is not at the local level. Additionally it is their own policies, such as the "two witnesses rule" that are a big part of the problem.

"Personal Choice"

Is it really? There is a part on it in this summer's convention where they interview parents who shun their own children, they are praised and held up as example. How many parents would shun their own child if they hadn't been manipulated by the Watchtower to believe they must? Yes, many people do talk to their children anyway, but they no doubt feel guilty about it, and you can be disfellowshipped for it.

Trust in jehovah

Yes, it's such a useful phrase isn't it? Just trust Jehovah and don't think about things too much, shut your eyes to the failed date predictions, the constant doctrine flip flops, the manipulations, shaky logic and child abuse lawsuits. All kidding aside, why are we supposed to do that? If I were Catholic the Watchtower would expect me to question my faith and reject it if I believed it was wrong, why doesn't it work the other way?

The Watchtower has been saying Armageddon is imminent for over a hundred years, yet every year that goes by means more millions of people will die. The preaching work is a failure, most people have no idea what JWs believe, even in countries where there are a lot of JWs, so why would they be destroyed? And what about the millions who have never heard of them?

Iown Mylife

That "local level" booshwah was a big reason i wanted out of the cult. One day you hear how unified the organization is. On another day you hear how the hypocritical crap going on in one congregation does not prove that the WT is not God's organization.

I decided that I would not be any part of an organization which tolerates and perpetuates Abuse of any kind, whether or not it is "God's Organization."

Marina

Tornintwo

Thanks for your great replies everyone, and for the frank advice, I know I've got to tread carefully (family situation complicated) . I made sure to say how much I appreciate some of the precious truths I've learned also. Their attitude was good this time but I can see the potential for it to turn sour....

millie210 I think you summed it up, there is a softening and a hardening at the same time, it leaves your head spinning if you try to make sense of it.

The Watchtower has been saying Armageddon is imminent for over a hundred years, yet every year that goes by means more millions of people will die. The preaching work is a failure, most people have no idea what JWs believe, even in countries where there are a lot of JWs, so why would they be destroyed? And what about the millions who have never heard of them?

So true Lisa Rose, people know the blood issue and that we offer some magazine at the door, nothing else....

A lot of their preaching/warning amounts to stuff like some clueless JW offering an Awake! article on the history of roller skating.

LOL Magnum

One more thing, I told them I was trying to find the latest info about these things from the governing body (in order to get clarity) and came across talks from Anthony Morris III on YouTube, that I was stumbled by him talking about the Armageddon dead as 'charred hotdogs on a spit' and said Jesus would never, ever use language like that (shock from the elder). I also told them I thought the 'no driving license until your baptised' comments were emotional blackmail, they basically didn't believe that would ever be said from the platform, I was desperate to send the the links!

millie210

Hi Torn,

The more you share about how the visit went the more I think THEY went away with something to think about - especially the elder who kept looking so shocked!

Doesnt it sound like most JWs (including C.O.s apparently) dont really know what all is going on other than what they are fed via the pages of the Watchtower?

I guess we shouldnt be surprised. I had no clue really until I came to this site and got an education.

And I fancied myself to be one of the more progressive and enlightened JWs.

Good grief!

Rufus T. Firefly

You need to read Crisis of Conscience (PDF available online). Ray Franz foresaw the time (now) when there are no spiritual men in leadership positions, only organizational men. From your description, the CO and elder are clearly organizational men. You didn't mention it, but I'm curious, Did they share any scriptures with you? In my discussions with my elders during my last years as a JW, I noticed that they never read one scripture with me. They focus on organizational policy rather than the Bible.

Tornintwo

Hi Rufus, the answer is very few scriptures, just one about being 'firmly routed in the faith..'

I got the impression that the elder was a bit shaken by some of the things I said, eg. The big losses in child abuse lawsuits, but the c.o. was not phased at all.

I've read C.O.C. it's an eye opener alright, Im now on In search of Christian freedom, although I haven't decided yet whether the good outweighs the bad or vice versa, I have no intention of shutting my ears to opposing opinions again.

Something which did impress was this, when the c.o. Said 'Jehovah is the judge and if we say anything apart from that we are putting ourselves in the judgement seat', I said 'I'd love to see that in writing in the WT', the elder said, 'it is in writing, in the bible'....hmm so in that case when the society says (or intimates) that all non JWs will die, children of unbelievers will die, disfellowshipped ones will die, then in effect they are going beyond what is written and putting themselves in the judgment seat of God.

LoveUniHateExams

I was stumbled by him talking about the Armageddon dead as 'charred hotdogs on a spit'

I couldn't believe TM3 said this. I was going to ask for a link but I found it myself - John Cedars' 'Getting to Know Anthony Morris - Part 12'. Wow. I had to hear it to believe it. This guy is a deluded psychopath.

If this is the kind of mind set you're dealing with, Tornintwo, be careful.

Tornintwo

Here is a link to the full talk in audio, useful to play to someone without the 'apostate' intro:

http://hi5songs.com/anthony-morris--the-time-left-is-reduced-–-how-will-you-use-it-mp3-download.html?search=anthony-morris--the-time-left-is-reduced-–-how-will-you-use-it-mp3-download.html

doubts and shunning....shepherding call

Share this