doubts and shunning....shepherding call (page 2)

rip van winkle

Listen, I don't care how nice your elders seem...they are gonna play nice ...until they don't.

Before you continue down this road...decide for yourself which path you want to take-- before they make that decision for you.

I'm going to give you an experience I had with an unsuspecting elder. This happened when I was awakening from my indoctrination. Out in F/S I asked this elder "on judgment day do I stand before God as an individual based on my faith or as an organization". His reply was "as an individual". I almost collapsed and thought to myself dose this guy realize what he said.

With regard to your issue at hand my advise would be "be careful".

The Searcher

Facts:

1) You are now in the Elders' sights as being a potential apostate & divisive troublemaker. The new C.O. will have some advice for them.

2) You must be prepared to brush off future, inevitable questionings with a simple but emphatic, "thanks for asking, but each of us has to deal with private & personal questions about our faith. I appreciate your concern, but I'll wait on Jehovah."

If they persist - "rinse & repeat" - they'll get the message! If you want to use scriptural backup, just remind them of how even some (3,4,5,6???) of Jesus' apostles felt ; "When they saw him, they bowed down to him, but some doubted." (Matthew 28:17 - HNV) They weren't disfellowshipped for having doubts!!

Don't give them any more ammunition.

jookbeard

"trusting in Jehovah" simply isn't good enough

"mistakes at local level" not good enough either and a blatant lie.

"we cant judge only Jehovah can" is there any point in even replying?

TheListener

In my experience they will be very helpful as long as they feel you are accepting what they tell you and don't speak to anyone about your doubts.

They sort of know that you will either get over your doubts because you sincerely love jehovah and his organization or you will get more and more frustrated and eventually do or say something which will cause them to act in a judicial way.

Please be really careful about future meetings with the elders and what you say to others.

freemindfade

I had similar kindness from a co and elder years back when my fade began. Elder was a dear friend so on. However... I have seen the other side as well. Many fights with wife. Shunned by my family. Treated differently by friends. I have been fortunate enough to be around really kind genuine elders during this time AND choose my words carefully as you have.

LoveUniHateExams

@Tornintwo - nice OP.

This is as nice as Watchtower goons get. Having given you a full blast of WTS charm, they now expect you to: change your mind re the 3 issues you raised; button your lip if you privately cling on to those issues.

As other posters have said, these men may not be so nice behind the scenes.

If you continue to raise your doubts, the next 'shepherding call' won't be so cosy.

OnTheWayOut

They said re 'everyone else will die' that 'Jehovah is the judge and if anyone says anything other than that then they are putting themselves in the position as judge which is wrong'.

If they could get away with it, they would wink every time they say that "others" might live. They always have said that Jehovah is the judge and nobody else, they have said for a long time that others might be deemed worthy. But they also have said that deserving people should respond to the preaching work. They want a JW to think that it will be difficult even for a JW to survive unless they are faithful to the printing company, and that any outsiders who survive the great tribulation would be isolated ones who are right-hearted but not visited by representatives of the printing company.

Jehovah can draw people using the Internet

Yeah, that's their new calling. Don't be fooled by them. They demonized the internet because they couldn't sell literature that way. Now they embrace it because they grabbed all the cash from members and don't want to give away printed literature, but will let people read it or print it from their computer. When members wonder how they are recruiting, they are to think that angels are drawing people to the website.

The co said it is a personal choice by families how much association they have. I said 'I'd love to see that in the WT' and pointed out the recent wt on not even emailing your df'd kids, again he said it is a personal choice, Is it really? Aren't there sanctions if you choose to associate with a disfellowshipped family member?

Another fine job you did pointing out their two-faced answers. I am sure that, if pressed, they could say that sanctions are only enforced where spiritual discussions with the DF'ed are involved. That just means that they look the other way sometimes when their loyal members associate with DF'ed ones and they decide when to form a judicial committee. The long and short of that is, "If you must disobey, keep quiet about it."

re child abuse they put it down to mistakes made on a local level.

Good job countering them on that. It's really quite the opposite. Local elders are (and have been) calling Headquarters for instructions on handling child abuse.

He said categorically 'we cannot disfellowship anyone for having different private opinions on matters, only if they spread it around and try to encourage others to go against the society's teachings'. Is this true? I thought plenty have been df'd because of different opinions, take Ray Franz and co. Have they softened this stance?

Ray Franz was specifically targeted, and so can others be. If they want to oust you, they will make something stick. But he was telling the truth, as he sees it. The catch-word is "private." You are allowed to think what you want, but not to say anything about it. Even mentioning a doubt to a loved one is blowing the "private" part to them.

hoser

At the time you least expect it they will stab you in the back

millie210

You did a really good job Tornintwo.

If hundreds of C.O.s had to report back just what you said it could change some policies.

You have also received very honest realistic opinions here in peoples posts.

You see, changing policy and "you are going to get the ax if you continue" are both realistic scenarios.

The Org is in a state of flux. It is trying to retain its standing and its doctrinal rules while appearing to soften and be more reasonable or more mainstream as some have called it.

As an old timer I am watching in frank amazement as they do the "society shuffle" dancing around. No where does it show up more than in the Circuit Overseers.

They are really on the front lines now. No D.O.s to report to. Just them answering to Headquarters these days. For some of these under educated men who have made service to the Org their career, this feels like more autonomy. When will they sense the dangers that always come from being on the front line in any situation? Who knows?

So while we observe C.O.s in their struggle to make sense of the two headed hydra "NO TIGHT PANTS, NO BLOOD, NO TALKING TO YOUR DFd FAMILY, GET YOUR GO BAG THE END IS IMMINENT!"

"JUST DRESS MODESTLY, HEMOPURE IS OK, TALK TO YOUR DF FAMILY AT YOUR DISCRETION, WE NEVER SAID WHEN THE END IS COMING...."

one thing we can know for sure is that at least for now its the elders that make or break you.

They dont even understand what is coming down the pipe with all this doctrine dancing so how can they enforce it fairly?

They cant. No one could. So just be careful. In the meantime it sounds like you bought yourself some emotional breathing room so that you can continue to think your way through this.

I have been really torn in some of the same ways you seem to be. I have always fought from within for change rather than shouting from without.

Now for the first time I am marginalizing myself since, for me, I cannot seem to change things from within. This is after a 5 year struggle that involved numerous letters back and forth with the Society and meetings with 3 C.Os and one D.O. Everyone either doesnt get it or does get it and is afraid or feels ineffectual in creating change.

Its really hard to come up against the first wall of my life calm reason cannot be used on.

But thats what we have to deal with in our modern/evolving/sccrambling Org that calls itself

"the truth".

doubts and shunning....shepherding call