The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty 2596 Replies latest jw experiences

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  sunny23

  I don't know wheich positions have been rehashed here, but the one that I tend to lean towards is that suffering is crucial to the development of humans as beings who will eventually "be like god". -Ps

  This statement means that Jesus wasn't "like God" until he suffered his agonizing death. This statment also means that angels in heaven are not "like God" because they have not suffered. In Genesis God said "Look, man has become like one of us." Also didn't Jesus say "If you have seen me, you have seen the father?"

  I think you want to imply "discomfort" instead of "suffering." When I think of suffering I think of things that will cause lasting physical and/or mental damage to a person. Anything less than that would just be "discomfort" in my opinion. If you believe that actual suffering is crucial to all people then please do NOT have kids!
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  HowTheBibleWasCreated

  Suffering is crucial is Buddism
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  PSacramento

  DOn't make this personal sunny23.

  If you don't like the argument or agree that is perfectly fine, you don't have to make it personal by suggesting this or that about me, do you?
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  sunny23

  Buddhism strives for non-suffering. Buddhism defines suffering differently than most people would, it includes even desire for things you dont have as suffering. I don't feel that to be suffering in the sense that we are concerned about in this thread which is physical pain leading to death and thus the emotional lasting torment of survivors.

  Ps..

  I was only infering from YOUR implications. If i'm wrong in what I assume about your implications or if Im wrong in the analogies then please correct me! I mean no offense. I was referring to this underlined part as it seemed to fit with exactly what you said...

  7. Answers that trivialise the reality of human suffering

  For example..
  Suffering will be unimportant compared to eternal rewards

  Rational Response
  This is ethically repugnant. Suffering is not reducible to arithmetic. This life really matters. Any philosophy that minimises the importance of physical human life is dangerous. It is the same mentality that leads to religious extremism and flies aeorplanes into tall buildings.

  It is an extreme example of "the end justifies the means" defence, so beloved of tyrants.

  Like other theodicies it is dehumanising by reducing humans to pawns in god's game.

  Imagine that scientists developed a pill that would eradicate all unwelcome memories and create a feeling of bliss. How would you judge a scientist who imposed the most horrific suffering on millions of people, as unwilling subjects of his experiment, but who offered some of his victims of the magic pills when it was over?
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  cofty

  Psac - I understand Sunny's response.

  To believers - especially theologians - human suffering is a puzzle to be solved with trite, ivory-tower arguments and semantics.

  I have to try very hard not to get angry about it.
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  PSacramento

  Cofty,

  My Father died this April 12 after fighting a horrific battle against ALS.

  I KNOW suffering my friend.
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  PSacramento

  sunny23, I know buddhsim very well.

  I have been in MA for alomst 40 years, most of my MA teachers have been buddhists ( 2 are Zen budhhists).

  There are many parts of it that I find very attractive and others that I do not.

  Sunny, I stated already that I DO NOT agree with the "end justifies the means", never have and probably never will.

  One can argue ( you may not agree) that the suffering that we go through, that makes us stronger and more appreciative of life and love and teaches us compassion for others, is the MEANS to the end.
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  sunny23

  I've studied buddhism as well including a class tought by Robert Wright from Princeton online along with my own studies. I enjoy it a lot, specifically the scripture-free zen aspects.

  I'm most concerned with how you would judge a scientist in the aboze stated analogy.
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  PSacramento

  I'm most concerned with how you would judge a scientist in the aboze stated analogy.

  Which analogy?
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  sunny23

  Sunny, I stated already that I DO NOT agree with the "end justifies the means", never have and probably never will.

  but you said previously...

  but the one that I tend to lean towards is that suffering is crucial to the development of humans as beings who will eventually "be like god". -Ps

  So then suffering is the means, and to become "like God" is the end that justifies it? Do you no longer believe this as of 3hours ago?