The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty 2596 Replies latest jw experiences

  • flamegrilled
    flamegrilled

    So if one person is betrayed by God, we can challenge His existence or His compassion? (If quantity does not matter). jgnat

    If zero people are betrayed by God, you can challenge His existence or His compassion. That's up to you.

    But if one person appears to be betrayed by God then it raises a question about whether God truly betrays people, the same as if it appears to happen to two or more people.

  • KateWild
    KateWild

    So if one person is betrayed by God, we can challenge His existence or His compassion?-jgant

    I wouldn't necessarily see the tsunami as a betrayal. I would say it's more God ignoring suffering and disasters. IMO God has made no promises to me hence he cannot be accused by me of betrayal. The bible is full of promises, but I do not believe it's from God.

    But if one person were to be ignored by God, or 60 billion people are ignored by God, we cannot challenge God's existence as a creator, we can challenge God's benevolence as a loving hearer of prayers, and we can of course challenge God's compassion then.

    For me science and chemistry make me think of an intelligent creator, just an indifferent one.

    Kate xx

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR

    KateWild After 94 pages of intense debate you have finally cracked the mystery, and with logic absolute, the jarring sects you manage to confute.

    Hope you have a good weekend.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Posting on my phone, will join in later. V interesting. Disappointed at FG accusations. Sounds like bluster to evade the hard questions.

    Nobody asked you to share your personal spiritual journey only your theology and you were given carte blanche to present it in your own way. Dishonest sophistry.

    You have spent 50 pages saying "its a mystery" while studiously avoiding the word.

    You are so convinced there is a loving god the evidence of a quarter of a million needless deaths can be blithely dismissed.

    I used to have faith as you do. I would have died for it. I would have cited the design of nature, the resurrection of Jesus, the bible and personal experiences as proof.

    Unlike you I faced up honestly to evidence to the contrary.

  • flamegrilled
    flamegrilled

    Disappointed at FG accusations.

    They haven't come out of the blue Cofty. I've pointed out every time you've done it. And it's been with remarkable frequency.

    You have spent 50 pages saying "its a mystery" while studiously avoiding the word.

    Acknowledging that there are missing pieces to a puzzle does not make the entire thing a mystery. If it did we would have to write-off some very important areas of human knowledge.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    flame, you have also failed to provide those puzzle pieces that have been filled. What are they? What former mysteries about God have been resolved? Are they statements of faith? Statements of faith are not evidence.

    ...if one person appears to be betrayed by God then it raises a question about whether God truly betrays people... [emphasis mine, jg] - flame

    You have a bias to maintain your belief in an all-powerful, all-loving God. Any evidence to the contrary therefore starts as suspect. The human witness will be grilled. Any other cause will be grasped in order to maintain the original belief. It is this bias, I believe, that causes sincere people to doubt their own faith and their facility in prayer, when no answer is received. To admit Heavenly betrayal results in an intolerable cascading loss of belief. Better to blame themselves. They pray harder.

  • cofty
    cofty

    I lost count of the number of times Cofty misquoted me, or stated that I said things that I didn't. That starts to get ridiculous. - Flamegrilled

    I totally reject that accusation. What I have done repeatedly is to paraphrase your points in ways that you may find unflattering. I have never wilfully made it sound as if you said something unless I genuinely believed that was your position.

    You are resorting to whinging to avoid answering the hard questions.

    If the unecessary drowning of a quarter of a million innocent people doesn't give you pause to more thoroughly examine your faith what would?

    Acknowledging that there are missing pieces to a puzzle does not make the entire thing a mystery. If it did we would have to write-off some very important areas of human knowledge.

    Yes but if somebody continues to push a hypothesis long after overwhelming evidence to the contrary has been presented its time to give it up.

    As I said above, the evidence that convinced me there was a loving god was, the design of nature, the resurrection of Jesus, the prophecy, accuracy and truthfulness of the bible as well as many personal experiences in my life.

    The tsunami was so blatantly contrary to the concept of a loving deity that I was honest enough to look objectively at all these reasons. It was a long and painful process.

    You have taken the path of blind faith where absolutely nothing would count as evidence against your presuppositions.

    Are there reasons for your belief in god in addition to the ones I mentioned, or are some of those less important to you?

  • KateWild
    KateWild

    Better to blame themselves. They pray harder.-jgnat

    This is what Steven Hassan mentions also that destructive cults use to control their members, if they are suffrering they need to pray more, but also get involved more with cult rituals and practices. This thinking reduces self esteem and self worth.

    Kate xx

  • flamegrilled
    flamegrilled

    ...if one person appears to be betrayed by God then it raises a question about whether God truly betrays people... [emphasis mine, jg] - flame

    You have a bias to maintain your belief in an all-powerful, all-loving God. jgnat

    This whole thread has been about what God is alleged to have done if he were to exist.

    My whole argument is that there is no logical reason to reach the conclusion that Cofty is promoting based upon appearances. I therefore phrased my reply accordingly.

    It's perfectly reasonable when a person's guilt has not been proven to refer to his or her crime as "alleged".

    I have also firmly stated my position about turning this into a full discussion of the existence of God. Cofty initially insisted that it wasn't about that. Now he wants it. But only on his terms. I have absolutely no desire to go down that road. Cofty and others may pretend to be indignant about that now, but I engaged in this discussion based upon Cofty's rules. The OP is flawed. I have no need to justify my entire belief system, in order to further that point.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Then forever after I will refer to your alleged god.

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