Heh, I should've headed towards Malibu to see it fly-by and render a salute, but I didn't. That'd be kind of bitter-sweet, as I saw it land many times while on the aeromedical astronaut recovery team at Edwards AFB, where'd we be on the flightline or on stand-by in Huey helos in the event the astronauts needed to eject and we needed to locate them and bring them back to base for aeromed evac to San Diego (if we couldn't handle their case at the base hospital). Ah, good times....
Anyway....
Glenster said:
"Noah tried for a long time to reach them for a change of heart to no avail."
Can you back such a speculative statement up with scripture from the Genesis account? There's some reason to question if Noah preached a warning to anyone (2 Peter I believe makes a reference, as does Jesus), let alone whether they were prepared to handle anyone else on board (do you have any idea how much space a year's supply of fresh water and food it would take, for even one person?).
As a preacher, Noah must not've been very compelling, with zero converts (sounds like a modern-day JW who hopes for "not at homes"; maybe he wasn't trying THAT hard, realizing how it would create additional work for him, LOL!).
Actually, the koran's flood account rings a bit more probable, in that there WERE something like 60 other survivors (hence avoiding "bottle-neck" issues of genetics), but more survivors means more mouthes to feed, so it loses whatever ground it gained rather quickly. I remember it wasn't as long as the Bible account, though.
"God may give life, but it's a gift He doesn't have to give. He owns it all so has the prerogative do what he wants with it with impunity, could see how criminals would fill the world if allowed to grow unchecked, and got rid of them."
It's easy to forget the significance of Gen 9:5, where God delegates the authority and responsibility to Noah to establish law over his fellow man by accounting for spilled blood (perhaps that's why Noah needed a stiff drink?). The Bible records no other interim laws being by God after "thou shalt not eat the fruit", so the antediluvian Earth as written was basically devoid of law, since men didn't have the authority to set up laws until AFTER the Flood (and of course, God handed down the 10 commandments, and Torahic law afterwards, but little good THAT did for the inhaibitants of the earth BEFORE The Flood.
So it was a "Mad Max" anarchistic environment (which ironically is referred to as "Post-Apocalyptic", when Biblically speaking, anarchy was actually the PRE-Apocalyptic (pre-Flood) antidiluvean state. That's kind of an interesting thing to consider, huh?).
So when you say how "criminals would fill the world if allowed to grow unchecked"? that begs the question, how can you have "criminals" when there has been no criminal law given to define what "crime" even is? And once again, which omniscient being forgot to give man laws, as if he didn't anticipate the need? What was his name again? YHWH?
I read Gen 9:5 as God's mea culpa, patching the problem of "evil in men's hearts" by allowing man to at least prevent murder until God could come up with the (9) other commandments much later to write on a tablet and give to Moses. Of course, the Torah was the work containing further refinements of law, coming much later (at least, as the story goes).
But back to the flood account, I suspect references to a pre-Flood World before law existed are actually remnants of the traces of a pre-historic time before men had established ANY system of laws, i.e. before traditions of law had been developed (much less written down, eg Sumerian Code of Ur-Nammu circa 2100 BC, or Urukagina, circa 2800BC).
I'm dangerously trespassing into Leolaia's area of expertise here, so Leo, feel free to crush me like a gnat if I'm out of line here, LOL!
Jam said:
I have said this before, if the Bible had only consisted of the Gospel accounts.
Well, don't forget that you'd also have to remove every reference Jesus made to the Flood (which he apparently believed in), as by all indications Jesus was trained as all young Jewish boys were in learning the traditions of, and memorizing the Torah; he was referred to as a rabbi as an adult, etc.
So there's the problem with using another faith's religious texts (Judaism's Torah) to write another work of fan-fiction (The Gospels): you also buy into the weaknesses and continuity errors of the original work, and as the Bible itself wisely warns, don't build your house on sand.
