Anyone heard of Watchtower policy change concerning pedophiles

by Robert_V_Frazier 203 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • flipper
    flipper

    ANGEL EYES- No problem. No offense taken whatsoever. I agree- I'm not here to shoot down Jehovah or, God - however I feel it's important to see that definite improvements need to be made by the WT society and their child abuse policies if they are to REALLY protect JW children in the future from child abuse. Protecting Jehovah's good name is a different issue than revealing what the WT society needs to do to protect children.

    So- no worries. I wasn't offended. Just wanted to clarify some things from research I've done on the subject of child abuse

  • flipper
    flipper

    ANGEL EYES- Hey, no problem. No offense taken whatsoever. I'm not out to shoot down Jehovah, or God - it's just that the WT society needs to change it's policies to protect JW children within it's ranks from child abusers committing hideous crimes and getting away from being prosecuted by the law. There's a big difference between Badmouthing God as opposed to exposing the WT society in it's inadequate child abuse policies. Two different issues.

    So no offense taken. I know you'll do whatever you can to protect children in the organization also I trust

  • flipper
    flipper

    Sorry for the double post ! Weird- it didn't register so I posted again ! Now I have 2 posts ! Lordie, lordie

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    If you know about sexual abuse within the organization [and there must be thousands of people who do - some of whom see this forum], please ignore the idiocy of 'two witnesses' and 'waiting on Jehovah'. This child you know of being abused, will be emotionally crippled, perhaps suicidal, and often unable to ever pursue normal human sexuality as a result.

    Your simple act of picking up the phone, calling the local police, even anonymously, may save a life. Forget the effect this has on the abuser - you may never see him come to justice - though we hope he does. The main thing is the child - that innocent child whose life is being ruined by bad policy and misapplication of the Bible.

    That's all I have to say - please do it right now. Surely Jehovah, if he is looking down, will never have any ill feeling toward those who, like Jesus, show love for the little children.

    Well said.

    I used to have a copy of the Flock book, I have no idea where it is now, but instructions given to the elders are (1) testimony from minors may be ignored; (2) testimony from worldly people (non-Jehovah's Witnesses) may be ignored. So there could be evidence, there could testimony presented that the elders are allowed to ignore.

    No where are there are any instructions that forensic evidence or a court conviction acts as a second witness. In point of fact, as long as the sexual offender denies he assaulted the child, the child must present 2 eyewitnesses to prove that they are telling the truth.

    When I was a Witness, there was a great deal of confusion over whether the victim himself/herself could be a witness or whether the 2 eyewitnesses had to be literally standing and watching the abuse taking place. I was told by a circuit overseer the latter was the case. But I don't know if that is the situation now.

    As long as the two witness rule is in place, Jehovah's Witnesses allow sexual predators to attack without real fear of consequence.

    The two witness rule is evil. It is not found anywhere in the Bible. Not once does any scripture ever make this burden mandatory for victims of sexual assault. In fact, adult women in the Mosaic Law who were raped in the field were allowed to say they screamed. That was enough proof.

    Why would Jehovah make such a provision for an adult woman and yet demand so much for from an innocent child? Answer -- he didn't. This rule is not Biblically based. It is a lie and it is evil. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something.

    Chris

  • wannaexit
    wannaexit

    Reenia says: forensic evidence that leads to a conviction is allowed as the second witness from what I know.

    Wanna says : I don't think so darling. They want 2 flesh and blood witnesses. You should update yourself a little better

  • avishai
    avishai

    I could be wrong, is it that the conviction itself works as enough to get the df?

    See, that may be the case but if the elders don't turn it in (and some lie and say they have when they havent) How the hell is there going to be a conviction?

  • undercover
    undercover
    It isnt the elders who say that,we should remember its from Jehovah,

    No offense, Angel Eyes...I can sense your concern regarding the pedophile issue in the congregations, but...

    Watchtower Society policies do not come from Jehovah or any other imagined diety. They've interpreted ancient writings to fit their brand of religion and in doing so have caused irreparable harm to thousands of people.

    If someone knows, or suspects, this kind of crime, skip the elders, skip Jehovah and go straight to the police.

  • Sola Scriptura
    Sola Scriptura
    The two witness rule is evil. It is not found anywhere in the Bible.

    The '2 witness rule' is definitely contained in the Bible...

    Deuteronomy 19 (The Message)

    15 You cannot convict anyone of a crime or sin on the word of one witness. You need two or three witnesses to make a case.

    1 Timothy 5:19 (The Message)

    19 Don't listen to a complaint against a leader that isn't backed up by two or three responsible witnesses.

    John 8:17 (Amplified Bible)

    17 In your [own] Law it is written that the testimony (evidence) of two persons is reliable and valid.

    ----
    Elders, often are not equipped, to fully deal with this insidious crime that is degrading the fabric of humanity.

    I'm comfortable with our imperfect 2 witness policy for now. I'm am not comfortable with how some Elders Gone Wild hide behind this policy,so as not to get their hands dirty in the messy business of protecting the flock from wolves in sheeps clothing. Some Elders, who I personally know handle the 2 witness rule wonderfully. Others do not.

    on page 111 of the Elder guide book it says "strong circumstantial evidence" could be considered. (So victims, go to the police 1st. Get a conviction from Caesar. Then bring that to the Elders as your "strong circumstantial evidence". If that doesn't get them df'd then at least they will be tagged and bagged for the entire congregation to see.)

    If an Elder Gone Wild tries to imply Jehovah won't like you for going to the cops, Ignore them because they are not following directions.

    In the May 24th, 2002 letter to all Elders, the GB had to remind Elders that "the elders know that if the victim wishes to make a report, it is his or her absolute right to do so. "

    The Elder guide book also states that 2 separate witnesses of the same kind of wrong doing on separate occasions could stand together and accuse their perpetrator. (I personally know of a case where this worked perfectly to get a lying no good pedophile disfellowshipped.)

    The JW elder guide book also states this on page 93: "Victims of sexual abuse need to be treated with extreme thoughtfulness and kindness. Elders should always do what they reasonably can to protect children from further abuse"

    TheAugust 11, 2002 New York Times had this to say about the shape of the JW scandal. "The shape of the scandal [in Jehovah's Witnesses] is far different than in the Catholic church, where most of the people accused of abuse are priests and a vast majority of the victims were boys and young men. In the Jehovah's Witnesses, where congregations are often collections of extended families and church elders are chosen from among the laypeople, some of those accused are elders, but most are congregation members. The victims who have stepped forward are mostly girls and young women, and many accusations involve incest."

    Since many, (not all) cases of child molestation in the JW world involve family members or close friends, parents often fail to report to the police out of embarasment. I will not judge them, but in my heart I feel they continue the cycle of abuse.
    -----------------
    Sola Scriptura

    "A simple layman armed with Scripture is greater than the mightiest pope without it"

    -Martin Luther

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex
    yes it has to be two or more witnesses. It isnt the elders who say that,we should remember its from Jehovah,we live in an imperfect world,and please dont think im preaching because i totally understand where your coming from and dont like the idea either,but love for Jehovah helps me to see that even if we have to endure and suffer,Jehovah WILL step in and deal with things.

    I mean no disrespect to you, but can you show me just one scripture from the Bible whereby Jehovah mandates a child must present 2 eyewitnesses to prove they were raped?

    Could you also please show me one scripture from the Bible whereby Jehovah allowed the Isrealites, or first century Christians, to ignore testimony from a child, simply because the testimony is from a child, that might shed light on what really happened?

    Finally could you please show me one scripture from the Bible where by Jehovah allowed the Isrealites, or first century Christians, to ignore testimony from non-Israelites (or non-Christians), simply because that person is an Israelite or a Christian, that might shed light on what really happened?

    I would be very interested if you could show me. 20 years ago I prayed very hard to Jehovah to show me the truth and I would follow it wherever it led me. If I am wrong, I would be interested to find out.

  • besty
    besty

    Welcome Sola Scriptura - I look forward to hearing more of what you have to say. Interesting choice of username for someone who appears to be defending a magisterium controlled religion. Tell us more....

    The verse you quote in Deut. may have worked well in a Bronze Age desert community where judicial crimes and religious sins were all handled in public by the same elders.

    Today we have separated church, state and the judiciary.

    When will Jehovah's Witnesses stop treating child abuse as a sin and start treating it as a crime?

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