by Recovery 398 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I've always thought prayers were very much the same as a spell.
Don't forget the magic word, "Amen" to seal the deal.
Good point, lisa.... "So mote it be".
And just in case there are those wondering what website Recovery is referring to, I've provided it here for anyone to click and check it out:
Could not an act of magic be considered a miracle ?
To sum up closing arguments:
Jehovah says "YOU must not look for omens, and YOU must not practice magic." (Lev 19:26)
Jwfacts says: All the people in the Bible DID practice magic and there was no distinction between the practice of magic and miracles performed of God, directly contradicting God's word.
Etymological origins of magic: Middle English magique, from Middle French, from Latin magice, from Greek magike, feminine of magikosMagian, magical, from magos magus, sorcerer , of Iranian origin; akin to Old Persian maguš sorcerer
Etymological origins of miracle: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin miraculum, from Latin, a wonder, marvel, from mirarito wonder at
After looking up the word magic a thesarus we find the following associated synonyms:bewitchery, bewitchment, conjuring, devilry (or deviltry) , diablerie, enchantment, ensorcellment, mojo, necromancy, sorcery, thaumaturgy, voodooism, witchcraft, witchery, wizardry
Now logically if two words can be used interchangeably and they have the same meaning, you should likewise find *SIMILAR* synonyms when you look up each word. But such an occurrence cannot be found with the words 'magic' and 'miracle'.
After looking up the word miracle in a thesarus we find the following associated synonyms: caution, flash, marvel, wonder, phenomenon, portent, prodigy, sensation, splendor
In case there was any doubt left about the distinction God Almighty makes between magic and miracles, this *CLEARLY* makes a distinction between the two. From Jehovah's own words, to the etymology, to the thesarus.
So I leave onlookers with the question: Who really has the 'weak, unconvincing arguments'? Is it me? Or is it jwfacts? Who has shown you the facts from respected source after respected source and who has simply interpreted their own viewpoint of what consistutes magic? Some are saying well praying is a form of casting a spell. And things of that sort. But Jehovah did not consider such things (a part of worship to him) magic or spiritism. So y ou can take the distorted definition of these people, or you can take Almighty God's definition.
The ball is in your court, jwfacts.
Jwfacts said: In actual fact, they are not just similar, but almost identical. The definition of magic includes that it comes from supernatural sources. Both the Priest Aaron and the priests of Pharoah performed their miracles by calling on supernatural sources. That should be the end of the discussion, but you are like a dog with a bone. You argue very much like the poster Renee. Is it you? It is hard to tell whether so many JWs on here sound the same because they have been dumbed down by constant parrotting of Watchtower indoctrination, or it is just the same person with a lot of aliases.
When a person's argument begins to crumble they result to the same rhetorical, repeated, stereotypical, 'you're just a dumb JW' arguments. Apparently Jwfacts did not read the definition CLOSELY. "Two things that APPEAR TO BE SIMILAR (WHICH MEANS THEY MIGHT BE SIMILAR: I.E. THE ROD TURNING INTO A SNAKE) but DIFFERENT in the manner INVOKED".
Now jwfacts tries to gloss over this definition because it completely destroys the argument that magic= miracles. He tries to use the fact that both stem from 'supernatural' sources as a means to HARMONIZE them as essentially the same thing. But the thesarus does not do this. The Bible does not do this. And what makes the difference in the manner that they are invoked is the SUPERNATURAL SOURCE. One is invoked by a supernatural force from God, the other is invoked by a supernatural force of a completely different sort.That is why one is associated with devilry, witchery, sorcery, voodooism, and the other is associated with marvels, wonders, incredible sights.
Now there are those that use the argument that David is said to have studied omens, magic, and as well as Daniel when he was educated in the practices of the Babylonians. But notice the distinction that has to be made when one is arguing from this viewpoint. Daniel and David are thought to have studied, not practiced such things. Jehovah does not say 'YOU must not study magic or omens'. He says 'YOU must not practice it.'
Now here's an illustration. Imagine that your license as an attorney has been suspended temporarily and you are ordered by the district attorney to not practice any form of law, as your license is now suspended. Would you violate the law if you study your old college law books, examine precedent court cases, and learn new techniques by watching other lawyers present their cases? Of course not. You were instructed to not practice law.
The illustration/point is completely moot because there are many Jehovah's Witnesses who are doctors and who have prominent jobs in the medical field. To become a doctor, an extensive background is needed in Biology. And what does a great portion of biological instruction consist of? Evolution. So is it wrong for JW's to go to schools where they will have to learn about evolution (something contrary to the Bible)? Of course not. The point of Daniel and David learning magic is clearly fallacious and the true 'weak argument' as all can now see.
I see nothing wrong with Magic. Here is a Gratitude Spell and Ritual Instruction that is quite beautiful:
Prepare yourself and decorate your work surface or alter space with all your chosen ingredients such as : - any silver items - one silver and one white taper candle - a posy of white flowers - a bowl of fruits - a dish of coins - a piece of snow quartz When you are ready and everything is in place,stand at the edge of your circle. Close your eyes and breathe in, visualizing light energy filling your body. Breathe out and breathe away all negative energy. When you are completely relaxed stand up and move quietly to the east quarter of your circle or room. Light the east candle and say : "May the element of air bless this space with light, love and air and accept my gratitude for those gifts that I have been given." Light the south candle and say: "May the element of fire bless this space with light, love and fire and accept my gratitude for those gifts that I have been given." Light the west candle and say : "May the element of water bless this space with light, love and water and accept my gratitude for those gifts that I have been given." Light the north candle and say : "May the element of earth bless this space with light, love and earth and accept my gratitude for those gifts that I have been given." Move quietly back to your workspace and kneel in front of your table. Light your white altar candle and meditate quietly on the Goddess Rangda. In your mind give thanks for the gifts that you are showing gratitude for. See the abundance that you have been blessed with and say a prayer in your own words to the Guardian Angel Gabriel. Light your silver candle and,standing in front of your altar, raise your hands high above your head and say these words : "I thank the Goddess for her blessings. I thank the Goddess for her gifts. For bringing me my heart's desire By the power of sacred fire. And it harm none so be it." Spend some quiet time in your circle and allow your altar candle to burn through to the end but if you must put it out do so with a candle snuff or pinch the wick between dampened fingertips.When you are finished working move quietly to the left of your circle. Extinguish the east candle and say : "I thank the element of air for blessing me with the gifts I have been given" Extinguish the south candle and say : "I thank the element of fire for blessing me with the gifts I have been given" Extinguish the west candle and say : "I thank the element of water for blessing me with the gifts I have been given" Extinguish the north candle and say : "I thank the element of earth for blessing me with the gifts I have been given." Close your circle by saying : "May the four powers give back to the universe any powers and energies that have not been used. The work is now done and the circle is closed. So mote it be."
AnnoMoly: You totally missed the point I was trying to make - "whatever the source, the effect was the same - a man was magically/miraculously cured." To the onlookers who didn't believe Jesus was from God, it was sorcery. To those who did believe Jesus was from God, it was a miracle. Each side witnessed exactly the same supernatural event but attributed its origin differently. Even though Jesus' 'magic' was from God, others viewed it as demonic.
AnnOMoly, you are making the terrible mistake of many in this thread of arguing from the viewpoint of onlookers. We are not allowing the 'onlookers' to define what is magic for us, anymore than we would allow the pagan idol worshippers to define who/what is 'God' for us. That is a fallacious and weak argument, because of course those who believe in and practice sorcery, witchcraft, and other forms of spiritism would only view such a thing as magic as there is no distinction from their standpoint.
But Jehovah makes a distinction from his standpoint. And regardless of how many circles people try to argue around regarding what others would have viewed as magic, it is his definition and his distinction that holds supreme and that should serve as the *CLEAR* separator between the two, should it not?
WinstonSmith:
Just wondering if you can please clarify something for me?
I love crosswords, and I like to use a thesaurus to help me find the answers. The one I use is the Merriam-Webster and the online version is great. I did what you did above, and typed 'magic' into it. The result is here:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/magic
In both of the results, 'miracle' is not listed as a synonym, but in the related words, 'miraculous' is listed. 'Miraculous' is defined in the same work as meaning 'of the nature of a miracle' (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/miraculous).
There does seem to be a close link between the words 'miracle' and 'magic'.
In fact in the link above to the definition of 'miraculous' if you scroll down to the heading 'Related to Miraculous', in the list of synonymns, the first one listed is 'magical'.
Can you please help me to understand how 'miracle' and 'magic' are "distinctive and not interchangeable" with each other when the reference work noted above links the two? I'm trying to get my head around this.
Cheers mate :-)
WS
We have now moved from the realm of nouns to the realm of adjectives. This is where the distinction becomes muddy because the practice itself is not being described, however, a description of said practice is being described. Let me illustrate it for you. You have two words of a religious association: bishop and minister. Now I'm sure if you go to the dictionary you can find that both nouns can be described as 'religious', perhaps even more specificially having to do with 'Christian religion'. Would you conclude that the word minister is the lexicographical equivalent of bishop and that they should be used interchangeably because as adjectives they are described using similar words? Of course not. A minister can simply be defined as a preacher or a servant, while a bishop MUST have some form of ecclesiastical authority, yet they are both described and related to a religious nature. I hope this helps.
