Great comments, and thoughts, thank you all. I will certainly incorporate and revise my tack.
budbayview
JoinedPosts by budbayview
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11
Help with an entrenched family memeber
by budbayview inwanted to send this to my "active" sister in hopes of awakening her, comments welcome.
she thinks i am a heathen apostate.... losing my religion.
preface.
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How do flood apologists explain these?
by marmot inspear points dating to thousands of years before the flood (or even adam's alleged creation, for that matter) found preserved in situ among mammoth bones in naco, arizona.. or the 14,000 year-old footprint of a child at a mammoth hunting camp unearthed in a bog in monte verde, chile:.
the kicker is that this isn't even the oldest evidence for human settlement of the americas.
since the wt loves to trot out frozen mammoth carcasses as "proof" that mammoths died in the flood, who were these mammoth eaters in north america?
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budbayview
Good question!
My 2 cents…
Suppose for a minute, that the dating evidence of humans and remains demonstrates that we have been living on Earth longer than the biblical chronological history adds up to? We can assume it is A, true, or B, false, and thus the dating methods flawed. So, who said it cannot be true? How do we know the angles did not descend from time to time, put on some human skin and try out the environment? It is plausible, they have been known to take human forum, albeit for more sinister antediluvian antics.
Looking into archeological dating methods some, and without getting into the technical details, I do not think they are that far off. I think it is more plausible to assume A, that it is true, and the Earth is certainly been around a long time.
I think it is time to start looking for other explanations to explain the gaps in the bible. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying to discount the Geneses allegory totally, but perhaps some details were left out. It gets harder to believe the narrative as is, as man gets smarter and indisputable facts start hitting you in the face. For example, what about Denisovans, Neanderthals, and modern humans? Scientist are not faking these, this is real, and there has to be an explanation that supports the creationist and reality.
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11
Help with an entrenched family memeber
by budbayview inwanted to send this to my "active" sister in hopes of awakening her, comments welcome.
she thinks i am a heathen apostate.... losing my religion.
preface.
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budbayview
Wanted to send this to my "active" sister in hopes of awakening her, comments welcome. She thinks I am a heathen apostate...
LOSING MY RELIGION
Preface
The writer who takes the time to lay down his thoughts on paper; however, fatuous has more courage than any critic of the same. It is far easier to pretend your principled to conceal the overwhelming fear that all is not as it may be. I forgive you for the same.
Origins of Compassion
At times, I am reminded of humanities distressed state and uncertain future. Some event or moral situation will send me introspectively towards a need to validate humanities purpose and a need to rectify what is broken. I get grounded quickly, and I am reminded how powerless we really are. I’m not arguing the validity, grandeur, importance, and outcome of man’s technological advancements; however, very demonstrated is the corruptible heart of man, and mankind has and will prevent the good that may come from any technology advancements, and man will suppress it to a select elite few.
Therefore, my religious Christian background is stimulated, and logically I want conclude that according to the Bibles plot, and most Christians would agree that simply stated we have purpose, and we have a future supported by our Creator or God.
The more I read and increase my knowledge of the gospel, the more I question. I see man’s corruptible nature interceding and twisting the narrative with motivation to control humanity, his fingerprints are everywhere on these writings. The bible if full of circumstantial evidence, and hearsay or second person accounts; however, relatively little physical, or demonstrative evidence to support many of the claims made in the Bible. This is not a new argument, however a statement of the facts. Unfortunately, in our time, it requires faith, or a belief in the unknown to secure ones rational for their assertions on god and belief in the Bible as the literal words of god. Unfortunately, without any one of us actually seeing God, or his designate to corroborate the statement that all scriptures are the inspired word of God, this statement alone does not substantiate the allegation.
Why does any of this matter? Because I want the narrative to be true, I want to know that humanity has hope, above man’s own fallible means. I want to know that the intelligent being that created this universe, our earth, and all the living creatures on it, would not let violence, death, suffering, pain, and all the combined worlds’ atrocities to continue without interceding. I have little interest in the specific dogma of the world’s religions, but appeal to the logical intellect of causation at the highest level to grasp a purpose and future for mankind.
From the Bible we are to believe that this intelligent being, God, our Father, whom created us in their image, that instilled our parental, and maternal nurturing, and loving persona, that has ensured the survival of our offspring for millennia, would act any less for his human family. As parents, if we had two children and we had to choose which one would die to save the life of the other, who would you choose? Do you think God, our Father wants to lose any of his children? A Father who knows all the stars by name, a God that provides for the lessor animals? Do you really believe in your heart that he wants to lose any of his children, and that he would not go to great lengths to redeem them? Or do you foolishly believe that the Hebrew god, who murdered innocent children is the same creator? He put to death all the Egyptian first born sons, turned on Moses his faithful instrument, and would have put him to death for refusing to circumcise his son, or the Hebrew god who ordered Saul and the Israelites to slaughter the Amalekites. “…in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the LORD your God has commanded you.” Were these not his children to? But we are going to just dismiss this, and make an excuse that he is god and can do anything he chooses with his creation, or perhaps we reason that these children would grow up as their parents, as enemies of the Lord and therefor god in all his wisdom was justified in taking their lives? I am sorry, I cannot concede to either as a rational explanation for a being that is so intelligent to have created the cosmos and all that is in it. This Hebrew god sounds more like a lesser god, a power hungry vengeful, and jealous god, and less of divine origin, or one capable of infallible righteousness and love. The latter explanation is fallacious as well. How can we argue that we have free will and that our lives are not pre-destined if we are condemned before we have a chance to live out our lives? If we are incapable of change, then why are we going through this agony to begin with?
http://www.wikiart.org/en/gustave-dore/the-deluge
We are reminded of this when we look at the work of Gustave Deor, The Deluge. Seeing the tiger clinging to this vestige of life on the last peaks of land holding its cub on high. The children hoisted by their parents to save their lives, whose agonizing last thoughts of despair matched the black of the starless night sky. The artist image captures an emotion of hopelessness and despair, and awakens our compassion for these lost souls. The souls that we would just relegate to collateral damage. If these actions seem incongruent with our reasoning as gods children, created in their image, than I argue that there must be another explanation.
One such explanation is realized when we examine the motive, means, and opportunity for seeding disinformation into Bible. If one non-truth or lie is woven into the truthful narrative, than the whole series becomes questionable and the seed of doubt is sowed. The master deceiver or god’s adversarial opponent would have great motive to perpetrate this disinformation campaign.
Regarding the religious orders that have volunteered to assume the responsibility of the messiah or mediator’s messages, I suggest they are complicit in the proliferation of ignorance, and reproach of self-reasoning in favor of dogmatic ritual and rules for the sake of the organization. To ignore or prioritize the gospels writings in an effort to forward a particular sect’s beliefs and agenda, are in my opinion, blasphemy of the highest degree. For example, we are all familiar with an ancient allegory in the New Testament. That there was a god who was sent in man’s form to our earth, commissioned by his father to atone for humanities fallen state and teach the hope of a new government, redemption and a chance for the dead to have this same. I think many know of this antidote and what happened. This man taught, and demonstrated how to manipulate the physical world and that the limitations of death could be overcome. He was doubted as Gods son, and blasphemer. It is a great love story complete with the antagonist, Satan, government officials, religious leaders, and regular people like you and I. Unfortunately, like all good protagonists, he must die an agonizing death at the end, but only to be risen as a God and king for his loyalty. He has promised to come again to finish what he started, and we anxiously wait for his return.
From the ancient manuscripts we all profess to know him, what he said, and what he did, and we have a belief that he will return as he promised. And we believe this, without much historical evidence that he ever existed other than the collection of manuscripts and letters, and later period historian’s writings that have survived documenting this myth. They have been translated, edited, and canonized by none other than a Roman official, Emperor Constantine, a Roman and thus tied to very authorities that carried out our protagonist’s death sentence. These words have been translated into English and various other languages, added interpretation and opinion into what we read and call the New Testament.
I amazes me that most men cannot even read or write the original languages that these were written in, and even if we could, only copies of copies exist to this day. However, we are willing to give our life for this belief, we are willing to kill for him, to convert the non-believers, we are willing to give up our families, we are willing to burn down the very things that make up our life for this belief. And we do this in his name, we are convicted, we are driven, and what we are that we cannot see, is selfish. We are willing to do anything in his name to save our own soul, and have a chance at what he promised. And a few hundred years after he departed this earth and broke the foundations of the hypocritical religious bodies of the day, we are right back doing the same things that he warned us not to do. But we justify it, we justify it because we ALL believe we have the truth. The sad truth is that the fabric of this belief is as delicate a snowflake. There it is, floating down, you put out your hand to examine it, and it melts before your eyes. Do you think you could even remember what it looked like, seconds after it melted, or accurately draw it out on paper? But yet, we are willing to die for this, not associate with our own family, and condemn and judge others on this melting fabric of truth.
However, even I as the skeptic, I would ascertain that we do not know him like we profess, or what he said, and did and wants. Yet the one commandment that he espoused when asked by his followers, “what is the greatest commandment, my lord” we ALL fail horribly at. You see, if we truly believe what he said, and lived our life accordingly, we would realize that we cannot earn this gift, and that creating human sects, and various divisive religions, and by paying more attention to the “law” of the rules of the religion, by breaking up families by disassociation, by thinking that saving a stranger at a door or on a street corner is more important than saving the lives of your family, by not forgiving those that hurt us, by believing that God only cares about a certain sect. I say you missed the point of his message. Jesus said “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
I single out not any particular religion or sect, they all will fail because man is at the helm. And the minute they profess they are inspired by God, and place themselves as a mediator between you and God, you better look hard at what they profess, because there can be only one mediator, and last I checked he has not returned.
Some may argue that by proselyting they are meeting this commandment in full. I may agree to some extent, but when the organization of these events and an order is put in place to amass like believers, the effort is perverted to sustain the organization and its particular mantra, and not the individuals of the truth. This is simply the psychology of organizational structures, it exists in the secular world as evidence of large corporate entity’s managing a culture, ethos and core values to direct a multitude of employees for the same cause. It is the same in religious organizations.
Yes, I have lost my religion, but not my spirituality or belief that the creator will rescue us, from us. This I know, not because of ancient manuscripts, but because I can see his love in all his creation and in his greatest creation, us. Whom was created in the image of the gods, meaning our persona is as theirs. It is that simple. So, the devil is in the details I am told, then why bother with them at all?
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The Bizarre Free Will
by John_Mann intwo years before i left jw world i came to a strange conclusion about the jw cosmology and the free will doctrine.. basically i came to conclusion that satan is right about the universal sovereign issue.
and i came with that just only using jws premises, no outside apostasy.
i just told to my sister what she thought about it, and she said to me: dont tell anyone about this!.
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budbayview
Does perfection mean you cannot sin?
Perfection does not change one’s ability to make choices, or one’s free will. If it did, then ask yourself how or why perfect angels and the first humans sinned? Perfection doesn’t make you a genius, or give you super physical abilities. You must still put data into the brain or learn. What accomplishments would there be left in life if we did not have to learn, perfect or not? It may, and hopefully so, make us a better person because we have perfection. However, it is because we have the ability to learn, and get it right, without the forbearance of death or disease or physical limitations and obstacles. But, make no mistake, it still requires us to learn and experience life and gain wisdom to be a better person.
We are very close to perfection now, with few minor genetic defects. Provided we have no mental (that we are aware of) defects to prevent us from thinking. This erroneous business about only using a small percentage of our brain is bunk. I have heard it a thousand times, when one’s in the kingdom hall would speak of perfection as if it somehow granted ones genius abilities. “We only use 10% of our brains.” they would say. “Imagine if we could tap into the other 90%!” Most of us currently use 100% today, intelligence is not gained by perfection, but rather time and experience. Living a few hundred years would certainly give one experience and wisdom. The only thing stopping us from this is time and initiative.
Since we have shown that perfection does not mean you’re a robot, then is Satan the cause or the manifestation of evil? And, if he is abolished, what does this change with respect to good and evil? It will only serve to remove the antagonist, of which he had purpose. Without that, we would not know what good is, because we would have no comparison to evil. So, do we see Gods purpose, his wisdom and reasoning in setting the parameters for us to learn THE lesson of humanity. He wants you to love him for him, and not because he will condemn us in the metaphorically defined hell, for eternity. He wants to know we are loyal above the superficial riches he can provide or withhold, but because he alone has our best interest, it is because we need him for that reason, there is no other hope. So he could have just said that, and he probably did, but to show the reality of this to his children and to prevent this from happening again, he addressed it, and allowed this universal play to proceed. Since our Father set up the rules, he knows them with expert authority and since he created us, he knows us, again with expert authority. Therefore, to assume he did not anticipate the failures of Adam and Eve is underestimating the Grand Creator. Notice, I used the word anticipate. That is because, there is a difference between a hypotheses or educated guess, and the assurance of knowing an outcome. And, if he had an assurance of the outcome, that represents pre-destiny, and we are all clear that was not the case due to the implications. In other words, what is the challenge of living a life knowing each outcome? No fun at all, right?
Bud
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Paleo Diet. What do you think?
by DATA-DOG ini have been suffering from fatigue, burning in my stomach, and i have always had canker sore issues as long as i can remember.
whether it's from stress or not, i can't say, but i might be getting an ulcer.
the burning in my stomach and intestinal puffiness is getting to be be chronic.
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budbayview
Doofdaddy, thank you for your trite and crass response. However, perhaps you should review what the Paleo diet is all about. I apologize if you do not understand about nutrition, foods, how it effects the body, etc., and "this particular diet" or my subsequent point on soy pertaining to processed foods. Let me assure you, I have a complete understanding of what I am discussing, and you are quite incorrect in your assessment, look up the word nutraceutical or food scientist if you need to. Perhaps, I write too technical for the novice. Please read my comments again, and do your homework. Look up some references and discuss something of relevance besides attacking the author. I will be happy to explain anything you have questions on. including what the Palo diet accepts and does not, what processed foods are and lipids in general.
You do realize that you cannot “live” off coconuts, they will cause bloating, gas, pain, constipation and diarrhea.
I agree with your argument on the western diet to “some extent” however you realize that I am trying to help you make your point. :-)
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Paleo Diet. What do you think?
by DATA-DOG ini have been suffering from fatigue, burning in my stomach, and i have always had canker sore issues as long as i can remember.
whether it's from stress or not, i can't say, but i might be getting an ulcer.
the burning in my stomach and intestinal puffiness is getting to be be chronic.
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budbayview
Sorry to disagree with you, but I was in the nutraceutical business and understand how the ingredient industry maneuvers and a bit about fatty acids. These types of ingredients are marketed for profit not for your good health. I do not discount the usefulness of coconuts or their constituent products (in the raw), but you should be looking at the complete product assay, along with the full lipid profiles to determine its effectiveness and how it stacks up with other comparative ingredients. As I mentioned, there are other oils just as lipid healthy as coconut oil and in some applications better.
Subsequently, here is another example of taking a good raw ingredient and manipulate its form through processing. Just like soy. Soy used as a condiment, in its natural state is fine and has health benefits. The industry, used the Asians as an example of how beneficial soy is and started processing it and putting it in everything. Soy milk, soy protein, soy meat analogs, etc. And when the gynecomastia (man-boobs) started growing, because of processed soy increasing estragon levels, it garnered full attention then. So who do you think is the number one consuming county of soy products? I will give you a hint, it is not Asia. So while the Paleo Zealots will opt for products made with coconut flour, they are misrepresenting the intent by a constraint to eat coconuts, but do not realize how this changes the assay of the ingredient and subsequent mechanisms of action on the body.
As far the inclusion of the western diets in other cultures and the subsequent detrimental affects, I agree. However it has less to do with coconuts and more do with refined products and processing. Take a look at Gary Taubes book, “Why We Get Fat” for a good deep dive into the western diet. He makes a good argument, with documented references about this.
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Paleo Diet. What do you think?
by DATA-DOG ini have been suffering from fatigue, burning in my stomach, and i have always had canker sore issues as long as i can remember.
whether it's from stress or not, i can't say, but i might be getting an ulcer.
the burning in my stomach and intestinal puffiness is getting to be be chronic.
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budbayview
It has flaws in the supporting medical science references and is promoting an ingredient (coconut oil). Coconut “anything” is marketing hype, there are other oils and fats that have just as good lipid profiles.
Their argument against legumes is week, and again nothing conclusive in any medical studies that back up that claim.
They are misguided, the major problem with wheat today is GMO. It is not the same strains our ancestors ate. My family grew up on pasta (Italian) never heard of gluten intolerance or celiac disease until recently. Additionally, all the food additives that are used to process foods are very harmful.
For example, I was looking into rennet’s for cheese making and found out something interesting concerning genetic modified (GM) processes and cheese making. Rennet is a complex of enzymes found in all mammals. It is a key component in coagulating milk (curds and whey). It is processed form young calf’s (yes another unsettling use for these animals), and we won’t go into the how that works. Needless to say, animal rennet is somewhat constrained. There are vegetable alternatives, microbial rennet, and here it is, fermentation-produced chymosin (FPC). FPC sounds innocuous enough, but they use rennet-producing genes from an animal stomach and infuse them into bacteria, fungi or yeasts to make them produce chymosin (the key enzyme) during the fermentation process. The GM hosts (i.e., bacteria, fungi, and yeast) are then eliminated and the chymosin extracted off. Since there is no GM hosts remaining in the actual product, (i.e., chymosin) it is not labeled GM.
So here again is another example of science and technology in the food chain. In of itself these ideas are not necessarily nefarious, however what is the risk to our systems? So in the natural order, our design and functional maintenance was predicated on being much closer to our food sources. In that model, we would have a goat, a sheep, grow our produce, hunt for protein and gather what we find. Having cheese would require sacrificing an animal or figuring out which plants have coagulating properties and extracting that for your source of coagulating the milk.
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New awake up on jw.org about suicide
by hoser inthey have printed a series of articles about suicide.
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budbayview
Notmyfirstrodeo – “I'm thinking I should re-examine just what kind of god Jehovah is - We're doing all we can to get this divorce to go through, and we are living a decent life, will the Creator here my prayers?”
I am sorry to hear of your family loss and misfortunes. Yes, keep praying, and do not give up on our Father because of some self-professed truth holders have misrepresented him. Nor give up finding him out of fear, or guilt, or feelings of worthlessness. Forgive, including yourself, and move forward, find your Father, not in the WatchTower, or in one of man’s churches, but in your heart.
How can so much hatred and judicial condemnation be preached, when Jesus taught us to love our God with all our heart and mind and love our neighbor as ourselves. If we could all follow this one commandment, more would think twice about the collateral damage that shunning and DF’ing does. This is not love, it is ostracizing.
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How was Adam Perfect? He sinned....Duh
by DS211 inwell an elder brought this up with me and said he didnt understand how adam sinned if he was perfect.
i said i dont see how he couldve sin ed if he was perfect....but he had free will to choose.
i then told him that i thought if god wanted us to obey him the worst thing he could do was create us to have free will.....a side thought i had was:.
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budbayview
Good question, I have pondered this myself.
Perfection does not change one’s ability to make choices, or one’s free will. If it did, then ask yourself how or why perfect angels and the first humans sinned? Perfection doesn’t make you a genius, or give you super physical abilities. You must still put data into the brain or learn. What accomplishments would there be left in life if we did not have to learn, perfect or not? It may and hopefully so, make us a better person because we have perfection. However, it is because we have the ability to learn, and get it right, without the forbearance of death or disease or physical limitations and obstacles. But, make no mistake, it still requires us to learn and experience life and gain wisdom to be a better person.
We are very close to perfection now, with few minor genetic defects. Provided we have no mental (that we are aware of) defects to prevent us from thinking. This erroneous business about only using a small percentage of our brain is bunk. I have heard it a thousand times, when ones in the hall would speak of perfection as if it somehow granted ones genius abilities. “We only use 10% of our brains.” they would say. “Imagine if we could tap into the other 90%!” Most of us currently use 100% today, intelligence is not gained by perfection, but rater time and experience. Living a few hundred years would certainly give one experience and wisdom. The only thing stopping us from this is time and initiative.
Since we have shown that perfection does not mean you’re a robot, then is Satan the cause or the manifestation of evil? And, if he is abolished, what does this change with respect to good and evil? It will only serve to remove the antagonist, of which he had purpose. Without that, we would not know what good is, because we would have no comparison to evil. So, do we see Gods purpose, his wisdom and reasoning in setting the parameters for us to learn THE lesson of humanity. He wants you to love him for him, and not because he will condemn us in the metaphorically defined hell, for eternity. He wants to know we are loyal above the superficial riches he can provide or withhold, but because he alone has our best interest, it is because we need him for that reason, there is no other hope. So he could have just said that, and he probably did, but to show the reality of this to his children and to prevent this from happening again, he addressed it, and allowed this universal play to proceed. Since our Father set up the rules, he knows them with expert authority and since he created us, he knows us, again with expert authority. Therefore, to assume he did not anticipate the failures of Adam and Eve is underestimating the Grand Creator. Notice, I used the word anticipate. That is because, there is a difference between a hypotheses or educated guess, and the assurance of knowing an outcome. And, if he had an assurance of the outcome, that represents pre-destiny, and we are all clear that was not the case due to the implications. In other words, what is the challenge of living a life knowing each outcome? No fun at all, right?
When he determines we have the lesson learned, he will restore his theocracy….hopefully before we blow ourselves up.
my2cents
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New Here, Introduction
by budbayview ini have been eyeing this site for some time (years) and finally joined.
i was born in the organization, and grew up not too far were c.t.
russell started it all.
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budbayview
Hi all,
I have been eyeing this site for some time (years) and finally joined. I was born in the organization, and grew up not too far were C.T. Russell started it all. I remember as a child attending at the congregation in Oakland, many visits by Schroeder, meeting his family and watching his slide presentations of trips to the holy land. This was a grand hall, before they started cloning them. It had two floors, three schools, a baptismal pool, and a great library. I remember during the meetings, I would sneak into the library and look through all of Russell’s old books and Zion’s publications, they had quite a collection.
My Father died when I was young, and that just solidified our convictions (at the time). My mother carried on, and this was during the time period when smoking just became a DF offence. She tried to hide it, and finally was confronted, and DF. I studied and continued on through my time at high school, did the recommended route and not attended college. Although, I must admit, this was not my mother’s wish and at her insistence, I went 2 years at a tech school, and received a (worthless) associate’s degree. I commenced my career, and was a bit naïve and started sowing some oats, so to speak, all the while harboring terrible guilt. I met my wife to be at a bar, obviously not a witness, and was married. I moved away and could not stand the guilt (fear), started studying and brought my wife in. For whatever reason, I won’t bore you the details, we faded away after the years. After a long DF, my mother finally quit smoking and was reinstated, I have two sisters, one in the truth (although a hypocrite sorry to admit), and one not. During the early years, my mother brought in most of her siblings. My first cousins aunts and uncles are still in the truth.
My fading started out with terrible guilt and fear, and moved to resolving some long standing spiritual issues. In that quest, I tried to prove what I learned was the truth, and the more I dug, the more the fabric of my faith in the WTBTS started to disintegrate. It was scary balancing not wanting to oppose Jehovah and trying to reconcile my spirituality. Although I could not whole heartily agree with the WTBTS, and most organized religions in general, I am still very spiritual and have never stopped learning about my Father.
The apocalyptic nightmares finally subsided, and my latest quest is determining the authenticity of the bible cannons. I am having issue with its canonization during the Niceno–Constantinopolitan Creed and Emperor Constantine’s involvement. Seems like a bit of an oxymoron that we hold firm the bible as holy, but is was in the hands of the early Catholic church and Roman political system at inception. Add to that, the issue of reconciling texts of The Sumerians, Mesopotamians, Babylonian’s, Egyptians, and Greeks, that all predate any Old Testament writings, and I think there is a good bit to be sorted out…in another thread.