TMS

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Posts by TMS

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  26

  Elders- "Trained or UnTrained- WHICH IS IT??

  by JT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the biggest error wt has continued to make for the last 120yrs is they leave a wonderful paper trail behind - where a serious student of study will have no problem following and seeing that so many of their lofty claims simply don't fly .

  case in point - are the elders trained or untrained clergymen as it were?.

  well for those of you who have never served as an elder allow me to share with you what elders are told about their training.

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  TMS

  All fascetiousness aside, enlarging on spinmeister Moreno's words about the untrained clergy:

  The skill level among JW elders is uneven, at best. Perhaps one or two elders per circuit are capable counselors. Their life experience, education, knowledge and personal interest enable them to be genuine encouragers. One elder I know starts with the premise that all dedicated JWs, whether inactive, reproved, stumbled, offended, etc. "love Jehovah". His positive approach almost always nets him shepherding calls that end positively. No spectacular results in the long run, but an "A" for effort. Another brother, now deceased, lost his son in an automobile accident in 1958. His wife never attended another meeting. He persevered, never lost hope for her, but continued to serve God as a JW. His contact with other witnesses exuded a genuine warmth and compassion, unmatched. He was used till his death in the mid-80's as a subtitute circuit overseer. His "service talks" highlighted family relationships, caring for aging parents, compassion for others, etc.

  I have many examples on the other end of the spectrum, but I will table them for now as it is getting extemely late.

  TMS
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  26

  Elders- "Trained or UnTrained- WHICH IS IT??

  by JT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the biggest error wt has continued to make for the last 120yrs is they leave a wonderful paper trail behind - where a serious student of study will have no problem following and seeing that so many of their lofty claims simply don't fly .

  case in point - are the elders trained or untrained clergymen as it were?.

  well for those of you who have never served as an elder allow me to share with you what elders are told about their training.

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  TMS

  Mr. Moreno meant to say:

  Local congregation elders are unpaid volunteers with no specialized academic training under the auspices of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. Said society is not civilly or criminally liable for misconduct by said volunteers.

  TMS
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  64

  Family dynamics and the Org.

  by LDH in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have made a couple of remarks regarding family dynamics on other threads, but i thought it's be nice to start a new thread.... i'm no psychologist, but suffice it to say i see some similarities here.

  (please add to/comment on these thoughts).

  the organization wishes to be seen as our mother.

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  TMS

  The application of several scriptural "principles" affect family stability, cohesiveness and longevity:

  "seeking first the kingdom and his righteousness, and all these [other] things will be added to you."

  "making use of the world as those not using it to the full"

  "he that has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me."

  No question in my mind that the application given these and other quotes has greatly affected families among Jehovah's Witnesses. How many times have assembly parts featured individuals who have allegedly turned their back on lucrative opportunites in this system to "pursue kingdom interests"?

  How many times have parents been expected to turn their backs on teen-age or young adult offspring at the precise point in their young lives when they most needed adult guidance and understanding?

  How many basically good kids have grown up with enormous guilt trips because they never measured up to the narrow JW definition of a "faithful son"?

  Indeed, family dynamics are affected by Watchtower traditions.

  I've listened to "personal responsibility" arguments presented far more eloquently than Xandit's expressions, and feel that point of view is expressed by non-witnesses or those on the fringe.

  Having been in the org. over half a century, I've seen the end result of Wt. policies on the family.

  TMS
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  15

  Waiting for an apology?

  by LDH in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i was recently talking to a friend, an ex-admin from witnet, who said that they felt i was 'owed' an apology because of an offensive remark made on this board.. i didn't give it too much credence, since from time to time we all say things we shouldn't, but it did start a dialogue between us about things we would apologise for if we could.. on a really 'general' note, i mentioned i would apologise to every householder to whom i might have came across as being god's finger on their doorstep.

  for people who are supposed to be humble, when you are told every day of your life that you have the 'truth,' it becomes obvious that everyone else has a 'lie.

  ' therefore, it's not too hard to picture yourself being sanctimonious at the door while preaching the gospel of our lord jesus.. i really can't comment on what he said because i would reveal his identity and don't have his permission to do so, but suffice it to say he wanted to apologise for pushing off his personal preferences on others (which he didn't even believe but which were being taught as the word of god).

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  TMS

  Somewhat back to Lisa's original post.

  Without apology, I've been a prolific apologizer my entire adult life.
  My wife, for one, is not impressed with my apologies and often cites the old line: "Apologies are like a rubber eraser."

  In the mid-60's I made a rude and awkward exit from a conversation with an educated man, much my senior, with whom I was engaged in animated debate. . . . Feeling shame over the inappropriate handling of the situation, I returned a dozen or more times at all hours of the day to extend my apology. Finally, making contact, I extended my sincere apology. He, in turn, apologized.

  Now deceased Joel Meeks, Circuit Overseer, made an obvious misapplication of scripture in a service talk to the congregation. A couple of elders approached him about correcting the point before leaving the congregation. He refused.

  Eugene R. Brandt, District Overseer, made it a practice to stop everything at a circuit assembly, if he realized he had made an error of some sort. He begged humbly the audience's forgiveness. (Several years later, I found him not nearly so humble in real life.)

  I had intended for this post to be a personal review of the things for which I should apologize, but my thoughts are convoluted and fragmented.

  For now,

  TMS
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  15

  Waiting for an apology?

  by LDH in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i was recently talking to a friend, an ex-admin from witnet, who said that they felt i was 'owed' an apology because of an offensive remark made on this board.. i didn't give it too much credence, since from time to time we all say things we shouldn't, but it did start a dialogue between us about things we would apologise for if we could.. on a really 'general' note, i mentioned i would apologise to every householder to whom i might have came across as being god's finger on their doorstep.

  for people who are supposed to be humble, when you are told every day of your life that you have the 'truth,' it becomes obvious that everyone else has a 'lie.

  ' therefore, it's not too hard to picture yourself being sanctimonious at the door while preaching the gospel of our lord jesus.. i really can't comment on what he said because i would reveal his identity and don't have his permission to do so, but suffice it to say he wanted to apologise for pushing off his personal preferences on others (which he didn't even believe but which were being taught as the word of god).

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  TMS

  Lisa:

  You know I have always enjoyed your posts.

  My impression was on December 18, when you first posted here, that you were still an active Witness. I wondered to myself how long you would continue to be.

  Do I detect in your references to JW activity a past tense?

  BTW, my hat is off to you for the commonsensical way you seem to be raising your offspring.

  TMS
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  38

  TOLERANCE

  by Frenchy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  tolerance.

  i think the appearance of the now infamous danielle gives us reason for pause.

  i admit that at first i took her at face value which is what we are all supposed to do.

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  TMS

  Trolls are abundant in all the discussion groups on the internet. Successful trolls produce angry responses.

  I lean toward the view that some JW apologists are merely trolls. A case in point would be Fred Hall. Could ANYONE really slaughter the language like that in EVERY sentence unintentionally?

  I subscribe to the kinder, gentler approach recommended by Mr. Frenchy to respond to any viewpoint expressed. After all, who REALLY knows?

  I've found myself becoming increasingly more tolerant in the last 7 or 8 years than I ever was during my 55 years as a Witness. When two young Mormons called on me recently, I found myself feeling genuine compassion for them. We chatted non-confrontationally about baptism of the dead, Moroni and the tablets and the rigors of door-to-door work and parted amicably.

  TMS
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  99

  Who really is the FDS?!?!?!?!?

  by LDH in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hey all, hope you're having a great year so far.. before witnet was closed down, there was an interesting discussion regarding the fds and their failed prophecies.

  i asked a question, but unfortunately there wasn't enought time to get everyone's view.. so i'll rephrase my posts, and wait to hear from y'all.. if we are so quick to say that the fds is a false prophet because of some failed prophecies (even tho they say they don't prophecy, we all know better) then how would you explain the bible book of jonah?.

  a faithful prophet, jonah, followed (after much trial and tribulation to himself) jehovah's command to declare destruction on the city of nineveh.

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  TMS

  Lisa, I just knew you would stir things up! . . . . .now, after Jehovah acquiescing to Abraham. . . . Jehovah felt regret in his creation of man. . . The Society's spin on that is= he felt regret at the way men had acted and handled free-agency. . . I no longer accept "spin"! Jehovah felt regret. Just like Isaac "hated" Leah. . . Watchtower says "loved less," not hated. I say he hated Leah.

  TMS
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  99

  Who really is the FDS?!?!?!?!?

  by LDH in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hey all, hope you're having a great year so far.. before witnet was closed down, there was an interesting discussion regarding the fds and their failed prophecies.

  i asked a question, but unfortunately there wasn't enought time to get everyone's view.. so i'll rephrase my posts, and wait to hear from y'all.. if we are so quick to say that the fds is a false prophet because of some failed prophecies (even tho they say they don't prophecy, we all know better) then how would you explain the bible book of jonah?.

  a faithful prophet, jonah, followed (after much trial and tribulation to himself) jehovah's command to declare destruction on the city of nineveh.

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  TMS

  Perhaps not a change of mind, Lisa, but certainly backpedalling in the exchange between Jehovah and Abraham concerning Sodom.. . . . . . . Similarities here in trying to decide if communities were worthy of preservation. . . . . Of course, in modern times the FDS is allegedly "all of the anointed on the earth at any point in time." My question would relate to how much actual participation there is by these "anointed ones" in any matters, prophetic, doctrinal or organizational. My anointed grandfather on my mother's side and great-aunt on my father's side knew nothing in advance of anyone else organizationally. So their actual function as part of the FDS was largely fictictious or symbolic.

  TMS
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  20

  Hello Hello (Continued) Intros ....

  by Roamingfeline in

  1. social
  2. relationships

  hey, nice to see you again, kismet!!!

  where ya been?

  i do agree that the other thread was getting a bit long, and totally lost it's original purpose!

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  TMS

  An intriguing bit of Java's words:

  "However, most of the folks I know who left Bethel also left the religion within a few years. If the Society was really "God's Organization," one might think exiting Bethel members would become life-long pillars in the Witness community."

  ______________________________________________________________________

  Some of the operative words may be disillusioning, de-mystifying . . . . Making a pilgramage to Bethel never interested me. We always opted to go to a scenic locale instead. Subconsciously, I've probably wanted to retain my pristine, fanciful image of headquarters.

  TMS

  p.s. Two close personal friends returned from stints @ Bethel in the late 50's. Both men remained JW's, but were less in awe of the "Society" than most.
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  17

  Just stopping by to say hi....

  by LDH in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hello everyone, especially from witnet.

  as long as i have been on the net, i hadn't used it for anything remotely related to jw until earlier this year.. i was looking into bb software for our company's site, and on the infopop site i saw a link for witnet!

  since witnet closed, i have seen so much online, it's been a little overwhelming, lol.. i really enjoyed my time there, and i'll stop in here from time to time, if you can handle it.

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  TMS

  If Lisa does indeed decide to do more than just occasionally stop by, it would add immeasurably to this discussion board.

  TMS