Posts by konceptual99

27

Have the Elders ever been instructed by their bethel to call the police for abuse?

by StephaneLaliberte in

right now, there are a lot of talks on this topic in quebec and, at the mid week meeting, they are reading the letter sent in 2002 where it states that the elders will call the authorities if the law forces them to.

the strange thing is, it looks like even when there are laws to that effect, jws seem to believe that it does not apply to them.

for instance, i know that they do not report anything in quebec, even if it is the law!

konceptual99

The anonymous tipping of the police? Sorry, but this really sounds like something made up by loyals trying to make the watchtower look better. I cannot think of one valid reason why the society would need to be doing this anonymously, especially if it is the law.

I only mention anecdotal as I did not have first hand experience. I have had two elders (one was my father) relate experiences they have dealt with where they were advised they could report. This was in the case of minors at risk. There is no doubt this circumstance is rare and I am certainly not suggesting that there is any proactive response by the organisation when the question of the moral and ethical responsibilities of the elders is raised - the precisely opposite situation is the case in the 99% of cases, as shown by the first hand experiences on this thread.

There are specific instructions to report anonymously as evidenced by the internal Bethel memo posted as part of the ARC submissions. This only applies in the case where mandatory reporting is concerned.

The anonymous aspect of the reporting is typical Bethel legal nonsense designed to protect the organisation from being dragged into the matter in any manner.

27

Have the Elders ever been instructed by their bethel to call the police for abuse?

by StephaneLaliberte in

right now, there are a lot of talks on this topic in quebec and, at the mid week meeting, they are reading the letter sent in 2002 where it states that the elders will call the authorities if the law forces them to.

the strange thing is, it looks like even when there are laws to that effect, jws seem to believe that it does not apply to them.

for instance, i know that they do not report anything in quebec, even if it is the law!

konceptual99

The WT have written instructions used within Bethels where mandatory reporting is required that say elders are to report anonymously. I have heard anecdotal evidence of instructions being passed in other circumstances involving minors but I think this is very rare.

18

The sugar cube.

by The Rebel in

jw
friends

firstly thanks to cofty & smiddy for the kind words on my " final post" .

this post is simply to say over two months have passed since my last post and since then i have with my wife and son seen elton john live, visited stockholm, berlin, and most importantly appreciated " the natural beauty of my neighbourhood" with out even thinking about the watchtower.

i have also attended 3 watford football matches with my son and made better relationships with my parents, discovered harvey's draught beer and made new friends in my local pub.

konceptual99

Harvey's - that's an ale local to me from Lewes in Sussex. Are you this way Rebel or local to Watford?

17

clinking of glasses

by sosad1 in

hello all - long ago i posted under sosad..... cant get back under that name so hello again.

i though i remember in hte last couple of years that there was a change in the strict practice of not clinking glasses and toasting,,, that it was more of a conscience decision.. was i dreaming this?

any help towards printed information on this subject is very much appreciated..

konceptual99

That reference uses Exodus 23:2 as a scriptural reference supposedly to back up the thought that just because others do it, ignorant of any possible symbolism, that's no reason for Witnesses to do it.

The verse says:

You must not follow after the crowd to do evil, and you must not pervert justice by giving testimony to go along with the crowd.

Even this verse suggests a link with a legal application. This becomes clear with the context. Here are verses 1-3:

You must not spread* a report that is not true. Do not cooperate with a wicked one by becoming a malicious witness. 2 You must not follow after the crowd to do evil, and you must not pervert justice by giving testimony to go along with the crowd. 3 You must show impartiality in the dispute of a poor person.

This is obviously related to prohibitions on perverting the course of justice by either giving false testimony, being swayed by the crowd to change evidence or not being impartial with evidence regardless of the social and material standing of the accused.

Accepted, there is a principle that says you don't have to do something just to follow the crowd but there is no other scriptural evidence that specifically prohibits or even questions the appropriateness of toasting. If the WTS was consistent in it's application of prohibitions to everything that had some potentially pagan source then perhaps it would be reasonable but they are not. Even the above WT reference uses examples like pomegranates and the raising of hands to illustrate that other things may be construed to have a pagan association yet were acceptable.

Just like things like blood the logic is inconsistent and without foundation. As Anders says... it is wrong because the WTS says so. I don't think I've ever come across a Witness that does it and claims it's a matter of conscience however I may just give it go sometime just for a laugh.

13

Black Mirror White Christmas

by enigma1863 in

have any or you seen the show black mirror?

there is an episode called white christmas.

its based in the future and everyone has this app in their brain similar to a modern smartphone.

konceptual99

Charlie Brooker. His work is great and is similar in many ways to Chris Morris. Very dark but brilliant.

I've always found it slightly odd that he and Connie Huq hit it off however....

37

Has the rebranding worked?

by MrTheocratic in

it's been several years since the start of the rebranding of jehovahs witnesses.

i believe it started with the website change.

ever since then the religion has moved in a more modern direction.

konceptual99

Driving down the A316 past Twickenham the other evening and drove past a car with a big JW.ORG sign all over the back window. As outlaw says the internal rebrand is very successful...

33

"It is the victims right to approach authorities" The weak excuse used by the society

by stuckinarut2 in

we have seen that the society falls back on the line "it is the victims right to approach the authorities" during all the abuse claims.. they use this excuse to try and defend the passive lack of action in failing to report suspected cases of abuse.. a comparison came to mind:.

if we came across a person lying in the street who says they were hit by a car, would we say "it is your absolute right to call the paramedics and police"?.

or would we take the initiative and call those authorities ourselves to help the person?.

konceptual99

Sitting a young female minor sexualy abused victim down with three older men in a judicial committee meeting often in the presence of the perpetrator and being grilled by all of them is not traumatising the young victim ?
They have to be kidding.

Agreed. Disgusting actions.

Knowing about these abuses and not reporting them to the relevant authorities makes them an accessary after the fact of a crime being committed and they should be prosecuted.

Unfortunately the law in the US, the UK and many other places seems to disagree. If there is no mandatory requirement to report an allegation then there is no legal requirement for them to do anything. Having knowledge of an allegation does not make one an accessory. Even if you know an offence has been committed does not automatically make one an accessory. Of course the moral argument is very different but fundamentally this is why the WTS has had just a dangerous policy for so many years.

The WTS is notoriously legalistic and uses legal argument to wriggle in and out of situations all the time. It is 100% consistent for them to have a policy that frames their obligations from a legal perspective and not from a moral or humanitarian perspective when it comes to any matter whether that be construction or child protection.

Jackson's submission to the ARC exposes their true colours vividly when he made a less than subtle suggestion to the ARC that they recommend mandatory reporting across the board. Why? So that they would not be have to discuss it internally and unilaterally end up with a policy where morality trumps legality. They want the State to do what they seem to consider as dirty work for them.

21

Warwick and transport to meetings

by berrygerry in

i would imagine that most brooklyn bethelites attended congo meetings via subway.. how do they manage transport from warwick?.

konceptual99

Only last week in that horrendous WT one of the elders who spends 2 days a week on construction design work at MIll Hill was raving to the youngsters about the opportunities at Bethel, with the biggest growth being in commuters.

Yes the UK bethel family is being decimated by 2/3rds over the next few years as they migrate to Chelmsford but it seems they are trying to build a pool of people that work for free but don't need caring for.

Cha ching!!

29

Dr Monica Applewhite's evidence rejected by Australian Child Abuse Royal Commission

by jwleaks in

australian child abuse royal commission rejects dr monica applewhite's evidence and testimony.. [quote] dr applewhite acknowledged that her report did not identify the basis on which she had formed her opinions.657 she accepted that her report failed to identify the ‘current standards’ of other religious organisations658 or which ‘religious organisations’ she referred to in writing her report.659 dr applewhite told the royal commission that her understanding of material provided to parents and families about sexual development in children by other faith-based organisations was ‘anecdotal’.660.

dr applewhite accepted that it would be difficult for the royal commission to accept the opinions expressed in paragraphs 36, 45, and 46 of her report because her report did not identify the basis on which those opinions were formed.661.

we do not consider that dr applewhite’s report and the opinions expressed therein assist the royal commission in its inquiry for the following reasons:.

konceptual99

Have not the WTS referred to MA's previous glowing reports about their child abuse policies in the literature? If so I wonder if this will get the magic whiteout applied and all memory of her and her words erased from the WT public record?

Can Wifibandit or any of our other ace archivists confirm?

21

Royal Commission Australia - Report into Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower Society has been released

by OrphanCrow in

link to pdf:.

http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/getattachment/c2d1f1f5-a1f2-4241-82fb-978d072734bd/report-of-case-study-no-29.

reading it now...no comment yet.

konceptual99

Good question but don't forget there is the upcoming adjunct to the inquiry where the WTS will have to answer these criticisms. Perhaps their response to this will influence any possible further actions.

The question is if the government feels there needs to be any change to legislation to force policy change in the WTS. I doubt policy will change just because the WTS is weak in certain areas but if the ARC recommends legislative change to enforce best practice across many organisations then I suspect it will be enacted at some point.

Certain states in Australia already have mandatory reporting and I would see this as the #1 candidate for federal change. The other possibility is that some rule may be enacted to force elders and servants to undergo criminal record checks. I don't expect the law to change to force Witnesses to do much else since so much of the process is ecclesiastical and Western governments tend to keep away from enacting legislation that would affect religious freedom. You only have to look at the legal complexities around thing like equal rights and homophobia to see how difficult it is to enforce social progress over religious tradition.