Posts by konceptual99

443

Zone Visit: An Announcement That Will "Test Your Faith"

by breakfast of champions in

this is the scuttlebutt in one of the "bethel congregations" by us.. no details as to exactly what this "faith-testing" announcement might be.. anyone else hear any of this pre-zone visit hype?.

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konceptual99

Some of the comments from jwtalk...

Just got home after eating after branch visit. AMAZING! I've said a lot of that stuff to people tactfully, but Bro. Morris nailed it.

Bro. Morris is so funny....he gave a talk that was straight forward.

That was THE MOST DIRECT talk I've ever heard in my 25 years in the truth! WOW!

It was amazing. Loved bro Morris's talk, he is so direct, he really made me think about my life

A regular brother would get stoned if he gave a public talk like that. Only a GB member could do that.

WOW! That was a very straight to the point talk! I enjoyed it immensely and talk about really making you think. It was very encouraging!!!!

I absolutely loved the Branch visit for a number of reasons. I will be interested to hear what friends thought about the very Direct and Frank discussion by all of the Brothers.

What I get is that there i nothing 'new' as such, just very to the point and hard hitting.

Bro. Morris, LOVED IT!!! Talks like that should be given---maybe more often than they are. Just recall how he opened the talk about where this info originated.

What you have here is conditioning through osmosis. One of the GB says things in a talk that NO ONE else could say as it's unloving, unscripturual, full of personal opinion and judgemental. One of the GB says things in a talk that will NEVER be published as they are too controversial to be put down in print.

This stuff gets lapped up by ones in audience who wish they could be as judgemental, unloving, unscriptural and opinionated from the platform but can't because they are not one of the GB. It does give them tacit approval to voice their opinions more however.

At the AGM they show mock humilty about not "going beyond the things written" over Franz's type/anti type shite yet 4 weeks later present a bunch of opinion to an audience of over a million (1 in 8 of the global JW audience) which is full of personal opinion. This opinion then becomes the rules because 1 in 8 heard in from a GB member's mouth directly. 1 in 8 has lapped it up and can refer to it time and time again without it ever being in print.

It's a tool that has been used for years by the WTS but the ability to use technology to get GB talks into halls directly takes it to a whole new level.

21

Geoffrey Jackson hints at the identity of the King of the North

by scotoma in

jw
friends

the big news at the annual corporate meeting was probably the sudden realization that gog of .

magog was some group of nations.

the news was given by geoffrey jackson.

konceptual99

They know nothing. It's just a bogus method of raising expectations without having to say anything of consequence. I think they will be very cautious about ever putting a stake in the ground on this one. Be prepared for it to become less concrete and more abstract.

Ultimately they never can know who the KOTN is - since the whole thing is untrue.

9

Vic'n'Bob ... in the US?

by LoveUniHateExams in

i must be mad for starting this thread, but here goes: i quite like vic reeves and bob mortimer.

before you all jump on me, i realise that their humour is often childish and very hit-or-miss, to say the least.. however, when i'm in the right mood, some of their sketches are simply hilarious.. i was also wondering how british humour is received in other countries, particularly the us.. .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oizyptckdz8.

konceptual99

Love 'em. Saw them on tour several times. Brilliant.

17

Kingdom Hall consolidations in the UK

by raymond frantz in

/from reliable sources (brothers in position within the congragation) i've been informed that in two different location within the uk congragations are to be consolidated .these men are loyal to the society and have no contact with ex-jw community .many brothers and sisters within these 4 congragations are devasted and undertantably very upset .one of these congragation has in excess of 150k in the bank currently "held" by the society as a loan .do you have any more information on this ?

is this just a one off or a new trend ?.

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konceptual99

PS... A similar situation exists in Alton (Hampshire) - rual congregation. One move to share with Petersfield (another rural cong) cancelled at the last minute. They might be combining with congregations in Basingstoke (urban) now.

17

Kingdom Hall consolidations in the UK

by raymond frantz in

/from reliable sources (brothers in position within the congragation) i've been informed that in two different location within the uk congragations are to be consolidated .these men are loyal to the society and have no contact with ex-jw community .many brothers and sisters within these 4 congragations are devasted and undertantably very upset .one of these congragation has in excess of 150k in the bank currently "held" by the society as a loan .do you have any more information on this ?

is this just a one off or a new trend ?.

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konceptual99

KH operating expenses for 4 congs in 1 hall are not 4 x 1 cong in 1 hall. If you combine congregations and maintain the donations then you have less outgoings but the same income.

Not only that but if multiple congs sell existing halls and give all the cash to the society as the current arrangement dictates then you get cash in from several sources, but only need to loan one sum for one hall. Don't forget as well that some of the congregations have (had) substantial accounts if they have been in their current hall a few decades.

As smiddy says - money grab.

105

Consider the "outcome" when elders apply the two-witness "rule"

by AndersonsInfo in

jehovahs witnesses two-witness rule is applied by elders when a witness member accuses another member of a sin, even if that sin is a criminal act.

if there arent two witnesses to the accusation, it goes nowhere, including not being reported to the authorities.

and in the case of an allegation of child abuse, the accused is free to molest again.. watchtower attorney, jim mccabe, recently stated this about jehovahs witnesses two-witness rule which he described as a bible-based belief :.

konceptual99

I know most elders are well meaning and want to do what's right, but they are sometimes doing more harm than good. It's a very difficult thing to confront someone you know with an accusation like that, the average elder is just not qualified to determine the truth in these matters. They may feel an abuser is repentant and think the problem is solved, but even when they are repentant they are at high risk of abusing again, and the reality is most abusers are good at deception.

Years before this case the Watchtower said publicly that it would be very rare that a child abuser would ever be given privileges in the congregation again, but Campos was made an elder after being caught more than once. It's obvious that their official polcy is not always what actually happens. The two witness rule makes it almost impossible to prove abuse took place, and even with a confession, confidentiality rules ensures that others in the congregation may not know that there are predators in their so called "spiritual paradise".

This is not a case of individuals making mistakes, or an isolated incident here or there, this is a direct result of policies and practices that are there because the WTBTS and the governing body will protect themselves and their own interests above that of any victim. They have publicly berated the Cathoic church over their abuse issues, while they were paying off victims and insisting on confidentiality. They are hypocrites of the worse sort.

This is exactly the point that Enzo cannot get. The processes and deference to WT Legal means elders are falling into risk laden situations by default.

Even if an abuser is known to be in the congregation, it is WT Legal (via the branch) that determines if the person is going to be treated as a "known child molester". The elders can only take steps to "protect" the congregation if WT Legal let them. Woe betide any who step out of line and have a quiet word with parents - they will be up before a JC for slander before you know it.

Who really is being protected here?

48

Posters do you know of any cases where a devout JW was DF'd for Lesbianism?

by booker-t in

i think this is a hush hush topic among jws but i remember years ago at an assembly i saw two sisters(i am only assuming they were jws they could have been studies or relatives of jws) walking arm and arm like a married couple.

some of the jws looked at them like they had horns.

some of the jws moms were covering their small children's eyes and those two women were stared at like they had the plague.

konceptual99

Some young sisters in the Worthing, West Sussex area got df'ed for it a few years back.

47

Why don't parents of an abused child go straight to police, why go to an elder first??

by FeelingFree in

i hope i don't come across as judgemental but having read a lot on the current child abuse cases and the different threads on here, i am left wondering why on earth a parent of an abuse victim would go to an elder with the problem first and not straight to police?.

as a parent myself i know that if anything like that happend to my child (this applies to when i was still an active jw as well as now) i would not hesitate in going to the authorities as soon as i found out, it wouldn't of crossed mine or my husbands mind to go to an elder.

maybe after we had reported it but definitely never as the first port of call.

konceptual99

It's the culture of deference that is endemic. This is why, whatever the spin on the policies presented by the WTS, the current process poses such risks for situations to be completely screwed up.

105

Consider the "outcome" when elders apply the two-witness "rule"

by AndersonsInfo in

jehovahs witnesses two-witness rule is applied by elders when a witness member accuses another member of a sin, even if that sin is a criminal act.

if there arent two witnesses to the accusation, it goes nowhere, including not being reported to the authorities.

and in the case of an allegation of child abuse, the accused is free to molest again.. watchtower attorney, jim mccabe, recently stated this about jehovahs witnesses two-witness rule which he described as a bible-based belief :.

konceptual99

Hi Enzo,

Of course mismanagement can happen anywhere. The problem for the WTS is that the risk of mis-management is higher IMHO due to the way the policy is presented and cultural issues within the organisation that tend to defer up the heirarchy. You are right that the primary focus and blame should be on the abuser and that it is unfair to assume that the WTS should take full responsilbity for the actions of some.

On the other hand, I have seen how elders bodies act first hand over and over again. The repeated incompetence in how matters far less serious are handled reinforces the fact these are untrained men who often don't think through the consequences of what they are instructed to do. The obvious way forward however is to be 100% clear and publicly transparent on how these cases should be handled, along with clear direction that ensures the relevant authorities are involved as quickly as possible.

Finally, please don't feel you should leave the discussion - if someone is challenging you then have the courage of your convictions and justify your opinion with logic and reason.

105

Consider the "outcome" when elders apply the two-witness "rule"

by AndersonsInfo in

jehovahs witnesses two-witness rule is applied by elders when a witness member accuses another member of a sin, even if that sin is a criminal act.

if there arent two witnesses to the accusation, it goes nowhere, including not being reported to the authorities.

and in the case of an allegation of child abuse, the accused is free to molest again.. watchtower attorney, jim mccabe, recently stated this about jehovahs witnesses two-witness rule which he described as a bible-based belief :.

konceptual99

Hi Enzo,

Am I not making my point clearly?

I have never suggested that parents cannot go to the authorities at any point, before or after informing the elders. I have never suggested that any action will be taken against any that do. I have never suggested that ones are actively prevented from doing so. I have made it clear that I understand that elders are instructed to let parents know they have every right to go to the authorities.

It is clear that where mandatory reporting is required then the elders are under instruction to follow the law. However this still represents the vast minority of jurisdictions where Witnesses are present. The fact is that in the majority of areas there is no obligation for the elders to report anything. Of course parents still can but the process allows for a situation to develop where the authorities are not involved because both Witness parents and elders may act in a way where loyalty to the organisation clouds independant thinking on a matter. This is a cultural, not procedural, issue.

The parents may be misguided and think that they should not involve the authorities and unless the elders tell them they can, indeed should do so, then it never happens.

This is what has happened time and time again. My hope is that it would happen less now in some areas of the West since I think there is less automatic deferrence to the society on matters like this but it's not true of all poeple and certainly not true in all areas. In parts of Africa, for example, this whole subject carries great cultural shame and it's not dealt with correctly in society as a whole - what do you think happens in those places?

A simple sentence on JW.org could clear this whole subject up. Under the heading "Our Child Protection Policy" it should say "In the event of any accussation or evidence of child abuse being made to the elders then they will (a) ensure the physical safety of the child and (b) immediately inform the appropriate law enforcement and social care authorities.

Despite the plethora of paperwork available on the site you mentioned, the evidence presented in numerous court cases of abuse amongst Witnesses testifies to the fact that the procedures and policies leave the door wide open for mismanagement.