Resurrection of a fine thread.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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42
Daniel Made Simple!
by Leolaia inthe large horn on the goat is the first king of greece (8:21), obviously alexander the great.
after his death, alexander?s kingdom was divided among four of his generals (8:22).
the high priest), and further causes the daily sacrifices to cease, and the sanctuary to be defiled (8:11).
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Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24
by Fisherman injerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.
— luke 21:24 .
the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.
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peacefulpete
Would you be so kind as pointing me to a historical or reference work where Antiochus is responsible for destruction of the city and the sanctuary. If so, then I’ll also apply it to Antiochus.
Vidqun....Daniel is a blow by blow description of events of the Antiochus "the madman". Yes they destroyed the city, even took down the walls. The city and walls were rebuilt.
1 Macc opens with: 20 After subduing Egypt, Antiochus turned back in the one hundred forty-third year and went up against Israel and came to Jerusalem with a strong force. 21 He arrogantly entered the sanctuary and took the golden altar, the lampstand for the light, and all its utensils. 22 He took also the table for the bread of the Presence, the cups for drink offerings, the bowls, the golden censers, the curtain, the crowns, and the gold decoration on the front of the temple; he stripped it all off. 23 He took the silver and the gold and the costly vessels; he took also the hidden treasures that he found. 24 Taking them all, he went into his own land.
He shed much blood
and spoke with great arrogance.
25 Israel mourned deeply in every community;
26 rulers and elders groaned;
young women and young men became faint;
the beauty of the women faded.
27 Every bridegroom took up the lament;
she who sat in the bridal chamber was mourning.28 Even the land trembled for its inhabitants,
and all the house of Jacob was clothed with shame.The Occupation of Jerusalem
29 Two years later the king sent to the cities of Judah a chief collector of tribute, and he came to Jerusalem with a large force. 30 Deceitfully he spoke peaceable words to them, and they believed him, but he suddenly fell upon the city, dealt it a severe blow, and destroyed many people of Israel. 31 He plundered the city, burned it with fire, and tore down its houses and its surrounding walls. 32 They took captive the women and children and seized the livestock.
2 Macc 5: Antiochus, he thought the whole country of Judea was in revolt, and he became as furious as a wild animal. So he left Egypt and took Jerusalem by storm, 12 giving his men orders to cut down without mercy everyone they met and to slaughter anyone they found hiding in the houses. 13 They murdered everyone—men and women, boys and girls; even babies were butchered. 14 Three days later Jerusalem had lost 80,000 people: 40,000 killed in the attack and at least that many taken away to be sold as slaves.
15 But Antiochus was still not satisfied. He even dared to enter the holiest Temple in all the world, guided by Menelaus, who had become a traitor both to his religion and to his people. 16 With his filthy and unholy hands, Antiochus swept away the sacred objects of worship and the gifts which other kings had given to increase the glory and honor of the Temple. 1
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Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24
by Fisherman injerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.
— luke 21:24 .
the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.
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peacefulpete
For what it's worth...The author of Luke's revisions/omissions are suggestive of his understanding of Mark and Matt.
First, the author of Luke clearly did not interpret Mark or Matt's expression of "tribulation" as referring to events thousands of years in the future. He revised his sources to say : There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. His understanding would not seem strange if it were not for the Adventist spin we are familiar with. Clearly, he understood the "tribulation" of Mark and "great tribulation" of Matt as referring to the Roman suppression of Jewish rebellion in Jerusalem.
Notably, he dropped entirely the lines that follow (Matt 24:21b,22) that said the days would be 'shortened' on account of 'the elect' (Christian Jews) as this clearly did no longer fit his time of writing, a generation later.
Another alteration he made was removing the "immediately after the tribulation of those days..." in Matt (24:29). Instead, he dropped the line entirely.
He also adds a new intertextual typology from Tobit not found in his sources Mark or Matt. He introduces a delay, an 'appointed time' needing to be fulfilled before the restoration. In Tobit the writer uses those words for the period between the return to Jerusalem and the rebuilding of the Temple, which was decades long. Rather than see it as a weakness of faith he saw it as providential. The writer of Luke, it seems, saw a parallel in his day. Living decades after 70 he saw the Jerusalem largely resume as a city but the Temple still in ruins as well, but more importantly no Son of Man.
Luke also adds (21:27,28) the line that 'when you see the Son of Man coming, know your deliverance is near'. This is not in Mark or Matt. He seems at pains to temporally distance the Jerusalem events from the deliverance here again. He has introduced a delay "appointed time" and erased words that suggested the two were very near in time. Here he temporally links the Son of Man's coming with imminent deliverance.
Especially interesting is his seeming omission of Matts 24:10-12, 14. This is likely because his copy of Matt did not yet have those lines. They also speak to a later generation of Christians whose disappointment had made them grow cold. It also ends with the anachronistic prediction of the Gospel being preached in the whole world. These lines are almost certainly a later gloss, as they would have been useful for Luke if he had seen it, given his agenda of explaining the delay.
I guess that's enough for now.
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Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24
by Fisherman injerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.
— luke 21:24 .
the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.
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peacefulpete
It's not a simple knot to untie. Many factors complicate it. The first century reinterpretation of Dan 9 as referring to Rome, like the contemporary work 4 Ezra. The author of Luke's own personal amendments of Matt and Mark including his reinterpretation of Tobit 14:5: “But God will have mercy on them again. God will bring them back to the land of Israel, and they will rebuild the house, though not like the first one, until the appointed time has been fulfilled. Afterward, they will all return from the places where they are captives and build Jerusalem in grandeur.
So.... what we have is a revision of reinterpretations of an apocryphal and a pseudographical work that failed being made to apply to a world 1900 years later.
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Is it mathematically posible for Noah and his sons to have populated the earth?
by Fisherman inbible says flood occurred approximately 4000 years ago.
that is about *200 generations of breeding to get to the population on earth now.
keep in mind that the population increase is geometric.
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Is it mathematically posible for Noah and his sons to have populated the earth?
by Fisherman inbible says flood occurred approximately 4000 years ago.
that is about *200 generations of breeding to get to the population on earth now.
keep in mind that the population increase is geometric.
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peacefulpete
The Bible gives us the story of Noah as historical event,
Does it? Ever considered the story was meant as allegory? Teachers, even the Jesus of the Gospels used parables. The Rabbis have filled volumes with folk tales and colorful midrash. That there are two separate versions of the Noah story in Genesis would support that there were local adaptations of a popular story better than dismissing the evidence and insisting these stories are historical.
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How many terms does the bible bother to explain
by Blotty inthe bible is well known for its ellipsis* and its lack of explanatory statements of a term used.
there are exceptions in grammatical patterns, such as john exclusively using archon for ruler in his writings - which make the term self evident.sin - is defined"one" (unity) - is somewhat defined and also self evident from the context (no exceptions, every person part of that unity is listed in the context)an interesting thing to see would be how many terms are actually used and explained.
*the omission from speech or writing of a word or words that are superfluous or able to be understood from contextual clues..
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peacefulpete
I have to apologize, whenever I post I sound like I'm doing a thesis. I hate typing so much, I rewrite a sentence multiple times and often the end product sound robotic or dogmatic. Not my intention.
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How many terms does the bible bother to explain
by Blotty inthe bible is well known for its ellipsis* and its lack of explanatory statements of a term used.
there are exceptions in grammatical patterns, such as john exclusively using archon for ruler in his writings - which make the term self evident.sin - is defined"one" (unity) - is somewhat defined and also self evident from the context (no exceptions, every person part of that unity is listed in the context)an interesting thing to see would be how many terms are actually used and explained.
*the omission from speech or writing of a word or words that are superfluous or able to be understood from contextual clues..
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peacefulpete
Blotty... Sectarian usage of terminology forms part of the group identity. WT lingo has special sectarian nuances beyond the simple definition from a dictionary for example. Christianity as whole and divisions within had lingo that carried esoteric meaning unknown to a general audience. The Qumran sect, the Gnostics, the Cerinthians, the Paulinists, the Jamesians, each had colored usage. When the selection of writings, preserved to serve as a Cannon, was assimilated some of the language of the Paulinists for example became neutered and domesticated, stripped of sectarian meaning and catholicized.
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Two Powers in Heaven
by peacefulpete inwhile this topic might at first seem to come from left field, it has arisen in my mind when reading a number of recent threads.
this topic in full requires many hours of research to fully assimilate but i'm now only introducing the topic and encouraging further reading.
in short, by the end of the common era judaism included various heavenly figures that took on roles that, for all practical purposes, were those of god.
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peacefulpete
Riley...The question for me is, was this theological concept of two yhwhs intended? or the hapless result of pious editing and transmission? There is no doubt that this concept developed BCE and was fully formed in multiple expressions in late 2nd temple times, but did its first kernels found in texts that describe yhwh as speaking then switch to an angel, like Heiser features in his lectures, reveal a subtle dualism? I'm inclined to believe not. I suspect the repeated editing of these texts created, effectively, a new, unintended theology.
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Two Powers in Heaven
by peacefulpete inwhile this topic might at first seem to come from left field, it has arisen in my mind when reading a number of recent threads.
this topic in full requires many hours of research to fully assimilate but i'm now only introducing the topic and encouraging further reading.
in short, by the end of the common era judaism included various heavenly figures that took on roles that, for all practical purposes, were those of god.
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peacefulpete
OK. maybe in another thread we can discuss it.