Posts by peacefulpete

1

From JW upbringing to Burlesque

by Rattigan350 in

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/no-big-deal-just-american-185906892.html.

article titled: no big deal, just american pickers star danielle colby in her birthday suit on a beach somewhere.

further down in the article it says:.

peacefulpete

It's refreshing to see her success and happiness. She never speaks with bitterness. Her fans might feel squeamish about the burlesque stuff, but her personality is endearing.

10

Will the Chinese retaliate someday?

by Fisherman in

that’s all we need, to lose china’s economic friendship.

since the chinese explained it was a friendly balloon, shouldn’t we expect the same from china?.

It's kinda funny the feigned outrage of the Chinese. The decrying of a delay till it was over water from Republicans, the indignance on the part of those who saw the military response as heavy handed and so on. Everyone seems to see what they want to see. It has become known that apparently similar balloons flew over the US under the last administration, and nothing was done. I'm personally just fine with taking down a balloon, with spy potential flying over any country without permission. Especially if the balloon was out of control and potentially a danger to air traffic, as the Chinese say.

14

Two Powers in Heaven

by peacefulpete in

while this topic might at first seem to come from left field, it has arisen in my mind when reading a number of recent threads.

this topic in full requires many hours of research to fully assimilate but i'm now only introducing the topic and encouraging further reading.

in short, by the end of the common era judaism included various heavenly figures that took on roles that, for all practical purposes, were those of god.

peacefulpete

I see the link to the ebscohost article doesn't work today. Here it is: 148 Beyond Judaisms (2010).pdf (berkeley.edu)

14

Two Powers in Heaven

by peacefulpete in

while this topic might at first seem to come from left field, it has arisen in my mind when reading a number of recent threads.

this topic in full requires many hours of research to fully assimilate but i'm now only introducing the topic and encouraging further reading.

in short, by the end of the common era judaism included various heavenly figures that took on roles that, for all practical purposes, were those of god.

peacefulpete

Add to the Son of Man anticipations, the various other expectations such as the Messiah ben Joseph/David elements Messiah ben Joseph - Wikipedia A Dying and Rising Josephite Messiah in 4Q372 - Bright Morning Star

Then take the expectations that the King/High Priest Messiah would be a returned Joshuah/Jesus (Zechariah 6:11)

14

Two Powers in Heaven

by peacefulpete in

while this topic might at first seem to come from left field, it has arisen in my mind when reading a number of recent threads.

this topic in full requires many hours of research to fully assimilate but i'm now only introducing the topic and encouraging further reading.

in short, by the end of the common era judaism included various heavenly figures that took on roles that, for all practical purposes, were those of god.

peacefulpete

Sorry, a lot of this material is behind paywalls. If you have university connections this off works. But using some of the key words there is much out there for free.

9

While I don`t believe the Bible about GOD or other religions about a GOD ,I do wonder ?

by smiddy3 in

jw
friends

i do wonder about the universe as we know it .

it does boggle my mind ,and how such a variety of life does exist on this planet ,from the microscopic to the most advanced life forms.. in such an abundance .?.

and then looking out there in the universe the multitudes of stars like our sun and planets exist that we have no knowledge of boggles my mind .. so ,maybe i am spiritual in some sense..

peacefulpete

Can an Atheist Be in Awe of the Universe? - Scientific American

The original ending of Origin of Species:
There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.

Unweaving the Rainbow (Richard Dawkins)

19

Ruining the Earth2.0

by peacefulpete in

few years ago i did a thread that i hope has helped some folks.

maybe it is time to 'recycle' it.. did the writer of rev 11:18 (ruin those who ruin the earth) somehow anticipate the modern environmental situation, or did he intend something more in keeping with the bible's general concerns of morality and sin?.

secondly, how does the context help to interpret it?.

peacefulpete

Few years ago I did a thread that I hope has helped some folks. Maybe it is time to 'recycle' it.

Did the writer of Rev 11:18 (ruin those who ruin the earth) somehow anticipate the modern environmental situation, or did he intend something more in keeping with the Bible's general concerns of morality and sin?

First, what does the Greek say?

Secondly, how does the context help to interpret it?

Third, are there parallels outside Revelation to compare?

First, the Greek for "ruin" is diaphtheirai it is defined as "morally corrupt, defile, destroy" and is used numerous times in the NT and in the Greek translations of OT. So the Greek can mean "destroy those who are corrupting the earth" which would be perfectly consistent with the general message of the authors of the Bible, but is this the best interpretation consistent with the context?

Secondly, does the context help? Yes, Rev 19:1,2 using the same word says:

“After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! “For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted/ruined the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her”

Here in the context of Revelation the word clearly supports the meaning of people morally ruining or corrupting the earth.

Third, is there parallel usage of the word outside Revelation? Yes. 1 Tim 6:5

These people always cause trouble. Their minds are corrupt/ruined, and they have turned their backs on the truth. To them, a show of godliness is just a way to become wealthy.

A notable parallel in application is Gen 6:11 (LXX) which gives as justification for killing everyone in a flood:

11 But the earth was corrupted/ruined before God, and the earth was filled with iniquity.

The LXX Greek translation here at Genesis again uses the same Greek word we are discussing. This is significant as the author of Revelation was most likely using the LXX and made countless allusions to, and drew heavily from, the OT. Considering the global environmental devastation of an earth-wide flood killing everything outside the ark, I doubt the authors of the Bible thought of their God as concerned about environmental impacts.

As to the dual use of the same Greek word in Rev 11:18, this called an antanaclasis, a literary device. Often the repeated use of the word only makes sense when the word has a slight shift in meaning.

Matt 8:22 Let the dead bury the dead,

Roman 12:13b,14 Pursue hospitality and bless those who pursue you.

1 Cor 3:16,17 ...you yourselves are God’s temple... 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person;....

The entire book of Revelation directs the writer's anger at religious and political enemies for their moral/religious corruption. Never once does it mention environmental crimes such as cutting forests or salting wells. In fact, the one doing the environmental damage is God.

Next, it might be of interest that the WT consistently understood Rev 11:18 as describing 'moral corruption' until 1969 with the rise of the modern environmental movement. Was this a case of the WT honestly using the context to understand the author's intent or was it an attempt to keep their message relevant to a hippie generation?

Many former JWs carry baggage of worry about a couple phrases years after they have separated from the church. I've seen it in person and on this forum. Lingering "what ifs" if you will. This single phrase lifted from context and only recently re-interpreted has haunted some former JWs this way. The power of indoctrination is real and only by confronting the facts straight on will it loosen its grip on us.

14

Two Powers in Heaven

by peacefulpete in

while this topic might at first seem to come from left field, it has arisen in my mind when reading a number of recent threads.

this topic in full requires many hours of research to fully assimilate but i'm now only introducing the topic and encouraging further reading.

in short, by the end of the common era judaism included various heavenly figures that took on roles that, for all practical purposes, were those of god.

peacefulpete

While this topic might at first seem to come from left field, it has arisen in my mind when reading a number of recent threads. This topic in full requires many hours of research to fully assimilate but I'm now only introducing the topic and encouraging further reading.

In short, by the end of the common era Judaism included various heavenly figures that took on roles that, for all practical purposes, were those of God. I've mentioned certain ones in threads debating the Trinity in which I described them as 'emanations' of the deity. Concepts like Wisdom and Logos, even Light had been thoroughly personified and carried the weight of divinity toward a certain goal or reflections of an aspect of God. Writings of Philo of Alexandria, the diverse Wisdom literature and Qumran documents illustrate this well. In addition, interpretations of the 'Servant' of deutero-Isaiah, developing angelology, Shekhinah personifications, the enigmatic Son of Man of Daniel and Enoch literature all coalesced into what Rabbis later called the "Two Powers" theology. A conflation with the Davidic Kingly material from the Psalms contributed royal elements. Many passages in the OT and related literature were seen as support for worshipping this other power alongside YHWH.

Christianity naturally utilized these preexisting developments in its character of Christ. Some would argue this was the source of the Christain religion, formalized via visionary experiences and not just a post hoc justification for adoration of Christ. Either way, all of these elements are consciously used to describe Christ. Much research has been done regarding this "Two Powers" theology within Judaism prior to Christianity's formation.

I'd strongly recommend:

Alan Segal's Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports About Christianity and Gnosticism: Segal: 9780391041721: Amazon.com: Books

And

Brown's Two Gods in Heaven: Jewish Concepts of God in Antiquity: Schäfer, Peter, Brown, Allison: 9780691181325: Amazon.com: Books

Also an excellent article that describes these notions as not heretical but simply different from the later Rabbinic (Post Christian) thought. Beyond Judaisms: Metatron and the Divine Polymorphy of Ancient Judaism (ebscohost.com)

As to how this concept could have originated Sigmund Mowinckel, held that ‘Conceptions of a more or less divine Primordial Man were widespread in the ancient east. Apparently, there is a historical connection between the varying figures of this type, which seem to be derived, directly or indirectly, from Iranian or Indo-Iranian myths.’1 The Jewish conception of ‘the Son of Man’ was ‘a Jewish variant of this oriental, cosmological, eschatological myth of Anthropos’,2 influenced by a syncretistic fusion of Iranian and Mesopotamian concepts. At the least, the phrase ‘Son of Man’ was thought to be a well-known, readily recognizable title for a messiah of a heavenly type, in contrast to the national, earthly, Davidic messiah. As recently as 1974 Norman Perrin could claim that all the recent studies of the ‘Son of Man Problem’ he had reviewed agreed on one point: ‘there existed in ancient Judaism a defined concept of the apocalyptic Son of Man, the concept of a heavenly redeemer figure whose coming to earth as judge would be a feature of the drama of the End time.’

The Son of Man in First-Century Judaism* | New Testament Studies | Cambridge Core

Moving on then.... It might be surprising but diverse preChristian conceptualizations of this divine figure influenced writers of the NT in subtle ways. For example, recent threads have debated when the Christ was to become King. Nicklesburg's excellent article Son of Man בר אנשׁ — Brill (brillonline.com) expounded upon this aspect. He suspects the ways Gospel writers understood the term Son of Man influenced how they envisioned his power. Matt has the Son of Man wielding kingly power at the eschaton while Luke and John see his exaltation as accomplished facts.

Anyway, maybe some of this material will stimulate research and a better understanding of 2nd Temple Judaism and the origins of Christianity.

69

Did Jesus COME with the clouds of heaven in 1914?

by Fisherman in

take for example revelation 21: 10. .

“….and he showed me the holy city jerusalem coming down out of heaven from god.

here john sees something happening, action.

peacefulpete

The writer/s are connecting Jesus's coming in judgement to various OT passages that describe God and Son of Man as coming on the clouds or riding on the clouds. There is no secret meaning. This was an ancient idiom drawn from Baal as rider of the clouds. Yahweh and Son of Man are frequently described that way.

1Rise up, O God, and scatter your enemies.

Let those who hate God run for their lives.

2Blow them away like smoke.

Melt them like wax in a fire.

Let the wicked perish in the presence of God.

3But let the godly rejoice.

Let them be glad in God’s presence.

Let them be filled with joy.

4Sing praises to God and to his name!

Sing loud praises to him who rides the clouds.

His name is the LORD—

rejoice in his presence!

17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels:

Deut 33:26 ¶ There is none like God, O righteous people, which rideth upon the heavens for thine help, and on the clouds in his glory.

Isa 19:1 Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud

Psalm 104:3 You use the clouds for your chariot. You move on the wings of the wind

Then by the 2nd century BCE this idiom was attached to a "son of man" character:

I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,

2 Esdras 13:3 And I looked, and behold, this wind made something like the figure of a man come up out of the heart of the sea. And I looked, and behold, that man flew with the clouds of heaven; and wherever he turned his face to look, everything under his gaze trembled,

And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

The WT spin that it represents invisibility is more than silly given the sentence itself contradicts it.

In the minds of the WT it's all a ruse, the verse says one thing but means another. Secret knowledge only able to be understood properly by them.

51

Is it mathematically posible for Noah and his sons to have populated the earth?

by Fisherman in

bible says flood occurred approximately 4000 years ago.

that is about *200 generations of breeding to get to the population on earth now.

keep in mind that the population increase is geometric.

peacefulpete

lol...Mathematically possible? Is that the criteria for belief? I can assert any of millions of outrageous claims that are mathematically possible.

You are using a Chewbacca defense.