perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.
1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).
sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.
When did The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society start preaching that Christ's presence began in 1914? Yknot, can I answer that this was printed as doctrine much, much, later?
Flamegrilled, was "Christ presence began in 1914" believed and preached in 1925? 1935? 1940?
perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.
1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).
sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.
This is a very good question flamgrilled and sure to be an insightful thread. I really would like to read this through and address some things, but I can't right now. So, I am marking for later.
Nice to see you Sab and N. Drew,
My love to all,
Carmen
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Hello Carmen,
The little flock refers to the Jews and the other sheep are us Gentiles :)
Yes, that is the conclusion I have received as well.
I have also noticed that those who are reigning as Kings and Priests in Revelation 5 are the Great Crowd!
Nice to see you,
Carmen
this was the observation made by professor kieran flanagan who edited the compendium: "a sociology of spirituality".. .
at least the good news is that science is making a start in coming to grips with human spirituality.. one assumes our biggest advances will come from sbnr (spiritual but not religious) scientists since they are less constrained by religious baggage, dogma, sectarianism, divided loyalties, conflict-of-interest and other impediments..
I find it is easy to understand spirituality, but impossible to put into words.
through the new covenant, jehovah makes blessings.
available to many by means of a few.
the covenant are few, a mere 144,000. through.
We don't care what denominations teach Designs. We follow one Leader and Teacher and He has done nothing but teach us truth and improve our lives.
Nice to see you Jonathan. I sometimes feel as if the only one who is on fire for the Lord. I always enjoy your posts.
Correct. If only the reader, anyone, will realize there is no exclusive group of 144,000 JWs who alone go to heaven. The group doesn't exist as they envision it. Understand that and the remainder of their related crazy ideas go away.
Yes, I agree that this is a key point and would work for some people. We are all different. My husband and I hads different truths that woke us up. The bottom line is found in 2 Corinthians 3:15-16.
Love,
Carmen
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Thanks for the link Moshe. I love it.
SA, I will read more of your thoughts later. My son is wrestling the computer from me. But, suffice it to say for now that those letters were written to a JW with an assumed JW understanding of partaking.
My love to you all,
Carmen
with "memorial season" just around the corner, i am planning to put together a small brochure (or maybe just a plain-looking document on letter-sized paper) that exposes the embarassing fact that jws still hold their "memorial" every year even though, by their own teachings, they should have had their last one in 1914. i plan to give it to the next elder who stops by to "count his time" during memorial season.
but hopefully, this will happen before they start canvassing my neighborhood since i plan to distribute it to my neighbors as well.. i've just started this morning with the following "quick draft" (but i would appreciate your comments and insight... thanks):.
jehovah's witnesses, why are you still inviting people to "the memorial"?.
Yes Mad Sweeney, my point is that per WT teachings, the Great Crowd has no mediator, no Heavenly Father, and no hope.
Alfred, I will pray that your campaign is a success.
I am taking another look at it. I really like the question as a header. I didn't notice it before.
Here is how I used that same scripture read at the memorial:
1 Corinthians 11:25, 26 23 For I received from the Lord that which I also handed on to YOU , that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was going to be handed over took a loaf 24 and, after giving thanks, he broke it and said: “This means my body which is in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 25 He did likewise respecting the cup also, after he had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood. Keep doing this, as often as YOU drink it, in remembrance of me.”
“As often as you drink it.” But we are told not to drink it.
“Drink out of it, all of YOU ; 28 for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.” Matthew 26:28 So if we don’t drink it, we aren’t part of the New Covenant?
“The great crowd of other sheep that is forming today is not in that new covenant.”—Watchtower 4/1/1979 Then we don’t have forgiveness of sins?!!!
1 Corinthians 11:26 “For as often as YOU eat this loaf and drink this cup, YOU keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives.” Didn’t he arrive in 1914?
Jehovah's Witnesses, why are you STILL inviting people to "The Memorial"?
For I received from the Lord that which I also handed on to YOU, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was going to be handed over took a loaf and, after giving thanks, he broke it and said: “This means my body which is in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” He did likewise respecting the cup also, after he had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood. Keep doing this, as often as YOU drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as YOU eat this loaf and drink this cup, YOU keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives . -1 Corinthians 11:23-26
When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne . –Matthew 25:31
Another noteworthy evidence of Jesus’ having already arrived invisibly in glory is the separation of people into two distinct groups. –Awake! July 22, 1973 page 5
“The faithful and discreet slave” cannot be one person. Why not? Because the slave began serving spiritual food back in the first century, and according to Jesus, the slave would still be doing so when the Master arrived in 1914 . –Watchtower March 1, 2004 page 8
(Note: I want to keep this a short as possible since I want to be able to capture people's attention with brief "bullet" points having high impact)
I would take out the part I struck out. It adds unnecessary words. I was actually a little confused.
Another thing to note here is that Jesus said ALL authority has been given me.-- Matthew 28:18 So how did Jesus' position change in 1914? (Pssst... it didn't).
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I think that they are keeping people away from a relationship with God by teaching that only 144,000 are God's Children with the Holy Spirit to guide them. Romans chapter 8, Matthew 13, 1 John 3 only have two classes of people and if they are not Children of God, they are not part of God's people at all. As a result, the Great Crowd has no mediator, no Heavenly Father, and no hope. I also see that if one is a Child of God, then one is part of the kingdom covenant as well.
1 John 5:1 Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God,
Romans 8:8,9,16 8 So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, YOU are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in YOU. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this one does not belong to him.
YOU received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Galatians 3:28,29 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.
“But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts.”--1 Peter 3:15
His name should therefore be sanctified, or set apart as holy. -- Watchtower 1991 9/15 p. 7
…the title “Christ” means “Anointed One” --Watchtower 1969 1/1 p. 29
"First, though, these anointed Christians needed cleansing. As Malachi 3:1-5 had foretold, Jehovah God and his 'messenger of the covenant,' Jesus Christ, came to inspect the spiritual temple in the spring of 1918." Watchtower 1993 5/1 p. 15
Religious history is also full of charismatic leaders who inspired people to be devoted to them but who brought disaster upon their followers. “Be careful that no one misleads you,” warned Jesus, “for many men will come in my name saying ‘I am the Christ’, and they will mislead many.” (Matthew 24:4, 5, Phillips)—Watchtower 1998 2/15 p. 23
"The book YouMaySurviveArmageddonintoGod’sNewWorld, released last June, and the article “Jehovah Is in His Holy Temple,” published in the November 15 English issue of TheWatchtower, prove that Jehovah came accompanied by his Angel of the covenant, Jesus Christ, to the spiritual temple in the spring of 1918."--Watchtower 12/15/55 p. 748
Matthew 24: 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
I have decided to listen to Jesus instead of the Jehovah's Witness Governing Body.
1 John 2:27 And as for YOU, the anointing that YOU received from him remains in YOU, and YOU do not need anyone to be teaching YOU; but, as the anointing from him is teaching YOU about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught YOU, remain in him.
23 He that confesses the Son has the Father also
Galatians 5:4;1 YOU are parted from Christ, whoever YOU are that try to be declared righteous by means of law; YOU have fallen away from his undeserved kindness. For such freedom Christ set us free. Therefore stand fast, and do not let yourselves be confined again in a yoke of slavery.
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I think I might be ready to let you know one of my questions. I have not asked my parents about this. I am afraid of what they might do.
I tried to invite a friend to the memorial and she objected, saying that every Christian should partake of the emblems because every Christian should be born again.
In answer Jesus said to him: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”--John 3:3
So I started researching it. I have no answer for her. Here is a bit of what I found.
14 On one occasion Jesus said to the Jews that they would “see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but [they themselves would be] thrown outside.” (Luke 13:28) The “great crowd” of earthly survivors of “the war of the great day of God the Almighty” will be favored with the privilege of literally seeing the resurrected “Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets” back here on the Paradise earth and in royal service under the Kingdom of God by the “Eternal Father,” Jesus Christ.—Revelation 7:9, 14; 16:14; Isaiah 9:6.-- 8/15/1989 Paradise Restored Glorifies God
You are familiar with the scripture that is used to explain how the anointed know that they should partake?
For YOU did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but YOU received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.-- Romans 8:15-17
Look at the context.
For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those in accord with the spirit on the things of the spirit. 6 For the minding of the flesh means death, but the minding of the spirit means life and peace; 7 because the minding of the flesh means enmity with God, for it is not under subjection to the law of God, nor, in fact, can it be. 8 So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God.--Romans 8:5-8
So I searched this on my Watchtower CD. I found reminders to walk by spirit.
Quote:
If we let God’s spirit guide us, we will not be overcome by improper fleshly desires.—Romans 8:2-10. |
Quote:
To persist in doing Jehovah’s will, we need to put on the Christian personality and to live by the spirit, not the flesh. (Romans 8:4-8; Colossians 3:10, 12, 14) Having Jehovah’s view on the matter will enable us to carry on with our vital spiritual activities.—1 Corinthians 16:13.-- Watchtower 8/1/95 The Rewards of Persistence |
Quote:
Have I set my mind on “the things of the flesh,” rather than on “the things of the spirit”?’ (Romans 8:5-8)-- Watchtower 10/15/01 Who will Separate us from God's Love |
So as Jehovah's people, we are admonished to walk in the spirit as stated in Romans 8:8
However, YOU are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in YOU. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this one does not belong to him.--Romans 8:9 by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children.
So we are supposed to have enough spirit to walk in it, but not enough to be God’s children and partake at the memorial?
So I start reading everything I can on the memorial, partaking, being born again, and there are more and more questions without answers.
1 John 5:1 Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God.
John 1: 12 However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; 13 and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.
1 John 2:29 everyone who practices righteousness has been born from him. 3:1 See what sort of love the Father has given us, so that we should be called children of God; and such we are. 10 The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God,
Romans 8 and 1 John 3 only have two classes of people, and only one class of Christians. Then I noticed the wheat and the weeds parable is the same way. Two classes of people and all of the wheat are said to be in the Kingdom of their Father.
I also took a look at the scriptures we read at the memorial:
1 Corinthians 11:25, 26 23 For I received from the Lord that which I also handed on to YOU , that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was going to be handed over took a loaf 24 and, after giving thanks, he broke it and said: “This means my body which is in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 25 He did likewise respecting the cup also, after he had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood. Keep doing this, as often as YOU drink it, in remembrance of me.”
“As often as you drink it.” But we are told not to drink it. “Drink out of it, all of YOU ; 28 for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.” Matthew 26:28 So if we don’t drink it, we aren’t part of the New Covenant?
“The great crowd of other sheep that is forming today is not in that new covenant.”—Watchtower 4/1/1979 Then we don’t have forgiveness of sins?!!!
1 Corinthians 11:26 “For as often as YOU eat this loaf and drink this cup, YOU keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives.” Didn’t he arrive in 1914?
This is too much. It must be resolved before the next Memorial.
to the household of god, israel, and those who go with... may you all have peace!.
as you may know, i have shared the information given me by our lord as to his name, jah eshua.
we've had many discussions, others and i, regarding this... with some stating concern because they believe i am the "only" one to use that name.
because the name of God would be in the name of His Son as well. Like Eli-jah.
I think it is important for people who are familiar with the name YHWH to know that the name of the Son of God includes this name. That is how he made his father's name known.
