Liberty

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Posts by Liberty

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  42

  I need your help responding to my old JW friends email

  by student1 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hello guys, todya i recieved an email from an old friend of mine within the jdubs... he did the usual jdub thing get married really young and as such we lost touch.. he since found me on facebook and has been bugging me about my decision to leave, i talked to him a little but his mind is completely closed and irrational so i was having little success saving him from the cult and as sich i decided to end the call.. by saying "your happy and i'm happy so lets leave it be and aggree to differ" - however he wont let it rest this is his email: any help in responding would be most appreciated!!

  ps... how ironic that he should mention george orwell when he lives within a cult that epitomizes the 1984 book!!

  seeing as you never botherered ringing me back or texting i thort id email you.. .

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  Liberty

  Greetings student1,

  I'd say that, as long as he is willing to stay in contact with you, you should do your best to help him see the light. I think you need to probe the internal self-evident Watch Tower dogma which is actually weakest, the preaching work. World wide the JW ministry is a dismal failure and comes no where near the mandate set out in the scriptures that the JWs use to justify the nearness of Armageddon. The preaching work could NOT possibly be nearing completion since vast areas in the Islamic world, and most of Asia remains untouched by the "life saving" message of the Watch Tower Society. Anyone with 1/2 a brain can do the math and realize without any Apostate information that it would be a gross miscarriage of justice for ol'Jeehobie to kill billions of people who have never even met a JW let alone heard the message.

  The "collective guilt" theory used by the WT Society to justify the death of these uninformed billions is without any biblical basis. It also would prove God to be a rascist with cultural prejudices bent on genocide if the Watch Tower position were true. If there is any logic left in your friends brain the simple facts about how little the Watch Tower has done to get their message to these neglected areas should at least start him thinking about the glaring contradictions within this Watch Tower dogma which may, in turn, allow him to see the other problems with the entire belief system.

  The other huge logic problem the JWs have is that their over all numbers cannot keep up with the population growth. In short, the longer Jehovah postpones Armageddon the more people will actually die since it is NOT possible for just seven million JWs even preaching nonstop for 24 hours a day seven days a week to contact every single person on earth even once, let alone to start bible studies with them, before a whole new larger generation of potential converts would be born. No Apostate info needed since this is a simple math problem. Numbers don't lie.

  Math alone proves the Watch Tower Armageddon just would not be possible since billions now have never heard the message and every year God waits millions more are born who would all need to be contacted. How anyone could think that the Watch Tower's Jehovah was merciful or just in starting Armageddon after running the numbers is just beyond all reason. This immense failure of the Watch Tower to reach every corner of the earth with their salvation message was one of the main lines of evidence which allowed me to see that the JW belief system was deeply flawed.
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  31

  Is the "My Book of Bible Stories" appropriate reading for Little Ones?

  by Princess Daisy Boo in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my little boy, aged 4 1/2 loves his bedtime stories, and also loves "jesus stories" as he calls them... .

  now, i have never gotten around to going to a book store and actually buying a childrens bible story book from the shops (yes...i still have a bit of a mental block and some deep seated issues about any religious literature).

  my mom gave my kids a copy of the bible story book, as well as listening to the great teacher (the new soft cover book - think it is called that?

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  Liberty

  Objectively, there are no Bible stories suitable for children. This is generally not acknowledged only because in Christian cultures we are desensitized to the horrific nature of the actions described on nearly every page of a Bible narrative. If the Bible's, sexuality, cruelty, and random violence is not explained away and justified by the extensive extra-biblical appologetics it would never be thought suitable for small children. If they were just Pagan stories they would not be used at all for young children.
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  34

  A gradual decline or sudden collapse for the WTS?

  by DT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  many of us believe the days of the watchower society may be numbered.

  they are receiving an unprecedented amount of well deserved negative publicity.

  however, they are still experiencing modest growth.

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  Liberty

  Despite becoming incrediably dumbed-down and anti-climactic since the death of Fred Franz I fear the Watch Tower Society is here to stay. I hate to admit this, but if the drastic changes I've seen in Watch Tower land over the past 40 years (especially 1975 failure, the headquarters shakeup that ousted Ray Franz, and the death of the 1914 Generation) didn't wake the J-Dubs up nothing will.

  I don't know what keeps the present day J-Dubs hanging on because at least in the 1960's and 70's we had a vibrant door to door ministry, confusing but interesting and creative Bible interpretation, and 1975 or at least the 1914 Generation to keep us going. It looks to me now that the big "A" has been postponed indefinetly without even a clear approximate timeline. Without a timeline hearing that the big "A" will be here "soon" is all but meaningless. The door to door work is a complete joke because there is no one at home under 70 years old anymore. Since the death of Fred Franz there has been no interesting Bible out-of-our-ass conjecture and the rules are even more hardass.

  But I have heard that there are many young people who are attracted to fundie religion and harsh discipline as a backlash to the freedom in the secular world. People want a break from thinking for themselves I guess.
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  17

  This is what Global Warming is REALLY about................................

  by Warlock in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  posted by marc morano [email protected] 5:35 pm et.

  [see related un bali blog reports:over 100 prominent scientists warn un against 'futile' climate control effortsskeptical scientists urge world to have the courage to do nothing' at un conference ].

  global carbon tax urged at un climate conference.

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  Liberty

  Thanks Warlock for bringing up these views. Global Warming a very emotionally charged subject ripe with deep political vitriol. I don't need more enemies but I would just like to add a few thoughts from experiances with my own research and University Prof.s I had classes under.

  The common theme that surprized me the most in my many Earth Science related courses was the great immensity of the Earth. Humans really do not intuitively feel just how huge the Earth is. I was stunned by just how infinitesimally small we humans really are and how little we really matter (in the grand scheme of things) after studying the Earth in detail.

  All the weapons ever produced including the most modern nukes even if fired all at once would barely put a small dent in the crust. Humans CANNOT destroy the Earth! I repeat, humans do NOT have the power to destroy the Earth! I emphasize this point because before taking these classes I too thought that a lot of nukes could literally destroy the planet. We have the power to wipe out most of the higher plants and animals on the surface but the Earth itself would remain virtually untouched. The vast majority of the lower life forms which make up the highest percentage of the Biomass of the Earth would also feel little effect. We never think about these lower life forms because they are largely unnoticed and therefor are practically invisible but they do make up the greatest actual living weight on the planet and we cannot destroy them.

  Human's are naturally species-centric so we really think mostly about ourselves and how important we are and the things that are important to us. In short, we have an unrealistic view of the greatness of our own power and influence. This extends to our obsessions with Doomsday scenarios as well. Many religions unrealistically see humans at the center of the Universe and of primary interest to the forces of good and evil, God and the Devil etc. Even as some of us move away from religion we still retain the arrogance which falsely percieves us as the center of the Universe and certainly the planet.

  Global Warming is the perfect example of this arrogance and misperception. A dozen very active volcanoes would produce more pollution in a few hours than humans have produced in our entire history. Where do you think all the carbon in our emmisions came from in the first place? We did not manufacture it, we are just releasing it. Every bit of it came from the Earth's atmosphere originally. The atmosphere has changed drastically over and over again in the very long history of the Earth and humans had nothing to do with it for 99.9% of that history.

  Natural forces way beyond our control account for nearly every change ever seen on this planet. 99.9% of every life form that ever existed went extinct before we had even evolved. Extreme climate change has always been a constant in the Earth's history which is one of the reasons there are so many extinct life forms. Global Warming is not new nor unique. All the evidence from just 70 or so million years ago shows average temperatures throughout the entire surface of the globe at a constant 90 degrees F., hence tropical plant and animal fossils near the then poles (since the continents have shifted position since then).

  Many of my Earth Sciences/Paleontology Prof.s were very skeptical of a human driven climate change hypothesis. They were especially skeptical of climate change driven solely by human activity. The best bet is that humans may contribute slightly to overall climate change leaving most of it to natural forces we are still struggling to fully understand.

  Always keep in mind that quick radical changes in our energy use would kill far more people than Global Warming would. We need to approach the problem using reason and logic and not emotion. We need to proceed with caution and build a solution upon our best objective knowledge and not political extremism/exploitation.
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  10

  Jesus/Yeshua/Joshua paralleled with Horus -- my final link here on XMas

  by MadTiger in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  hotlinked for your perusal and approval

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  Liberty

  Thank you for your well researched responses Leolaia! I really appreciate the effort you have always put in to helping us understanding the crazy complex world of religious appologetics and Bible scholarship.
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  36

  I want to thank the Atheists here. I have come to realize I was wrong.

  by BurnTheShips in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hillary_step, nvrgnbk, superfine apostle, and others that have helped me so much.

  they said i would be an atheist within two years, but my metamorphosis has happened virtually overnight.

  'how many fingers, burntheships?'.

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  Liberty

  If I recall this is from "1984". Interesting since it is the religions of the world who for thousands of years have been forcing people to deny the reality that they percieve through their senses. It is religion which insists that I acknowledge things as "true" which cannot be seen, heard, or felt. I think you have missed the entire point of the book. It is the fanatic believer in unreality which must use torture and force to convince others that only they can be right.

  As a nonbeliever it is not vitally important to me that you convert to my perception of reality because I do not need your pledge of belief to strengthen what I can sense clearly for myself. I feel pity for the deluded and wish to help them if they confront me in a debate or ask me questions by sharing my release experiance from bondage to unreality which was the Watch Tower religion. I have no interest in torturing or forcing others to conform to my world view because I do not think my salvation or their's is tied to such a conversion.

  I wish only good things for them and seeing reality for what it is is a good thing. I would not put any more effort into this conviction, however, than I would in convincing someone that Sleep Comfort beds give you a better nights rest or that ice cream tastes really good. If they refuse the ice cream I feel sorry for them but have no need to torture them into saying they like it too.

  Reading "1984" was a wake up call to me as I realized how much like the Watch Tower Society the Party was so I hated seeing it misrepresented this way.
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  58

  Why do bible thumpers have to immagine a God who test.

  by jaguarbass in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i get this daily email from a bible thumping friend of mine this was part of todays topic.. sometimes we wonder, "why do we have to go through these trials & breakings, lord?

  " well, there are some things the lord can't reveal to you in advance because you're not yet ready.

  he's got to let you go through some testings without your even knowing what the future holds, to see if you can take it, to see how loyal you are, to see how strong you are, to see how faithful you are, to see if you will be willing to do whatever he asks!

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  Liberty

  Hi Burn,

  I don't understand your last post? Something which is well over 100 years old is a tradition.
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  58

  Why do bible thumpers have to immagine a God who test.

  by jaguarbass in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i get this daily email from a bible thumping friend of mine this was part of todays topic.. sometimes we wonder, "why do we have to go through these trials & breakings, lord?

  " well, there are some things the lord can't reveal to you in advance because you're not yet ready.

  he's got to let you go through some testings without your even knowing what the future holds, to see if you can take it, to see how loyal you are, to see how strong you are, to see how faithful you are, to see if you will be willing to do whatever he asks!

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  Liberty

  Welcome IMHO,

  Adam and Eve's test from God was nothing like a loving parent would EVER do to their children. God's test was very much like having candy injected with a slow acting poison and then hiring someone to tell the children that the candy is good and that they should eat some because it really will not kill them (true even, at least not right away) and better yet that the candy tastes good and is magic so that if they eat it it will make them smarter too. All of this temptation is set in motion while the parent (God) is away so it is even more difficult to resist. Adam upon seeing that Eve did NOT die when she touched and ate the fruit was even in a more vulnerable position since he knew God had lied about the fruit killing them.

  I never left my child with poisons which looked like candy at all, let-alone in easy reach and then demand they not eat it. Nor did I get another adult to encourage the child to disobey and encourage them to eat the poison while I was away. Nor did I have another child who tried the candy first "proving" to the other child that it was indeed "safe" to touch and eat. The intense cruelty and inticing bait of such an evil decietful trap is easy for any rational person to see unless they have been conditioned by years of Christian apologetics.

  Loving parents go out of their way to insure temptations are limited and that danger is far out of the reach of a child. No sane person would create such a clever and fatal trap just to see if their children will obey them.
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  10

  Jesus/Yeshua/Joshua paralleled with Horus -- my final link here on XMas

  by MadTiger in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  hotlinked for your perusal and approval

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  Liberty

  Hi Burn,

  I am sure that Leolaia would agree that Judaism borrowed heavily from many different pagan sources as it evolved. Keep in mind that the Hebrews/Jews were always a tiny minority culture constantly influenced and/or conquered by more ancient and far supierior civilizations like Summaria, Phoenecia, Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, Persia, Greece, Rome and others I can't remember.

  Though I agree we need to be careful about overdoing the "exact" similarities between myths it is very clear even from the Bible itself that Judaism evolved new ideas based upon the influences of the conquering cultures. The development of a personified Devil and of Hell are two examples which I clearly remember coming from Persia and obviosly unknown to early Bible writers.

  In short, yes I think it is very possible that a pagan myth could be the center of a Jewish sect. The wine as blood/bread as flesh symbolism of the Last Supper is certainly counter to all Jewish sensabilities since Jews would not even eat animal flesh slaughtered without blood draining rituals let alone eat unclean human flesh and drink blood. It is the equivelent in our culture of symbolizing lemonaid as urine and chocolate as feces, it just wouldn't be done among polite circles. This alone is evidence that the Last Supper ritual is more likely of late Roman origin than from early Jewish Christians.
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  34

  What are you going to teach your children about relgion?

  by reneeisorym in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  ) take them to your church and encourage them to learn about other faiths too..

  ) don't teach them anything about religion..

  ) encourage atheism..

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  Liberty

  My wife and I are atheists so we have been having to fight off all the Christian influences which are forced upon our daughter by my wife's Southern Baptist family, school mates, preschool teachers and the society at large. I have to laugh when I hear Christians complaining about how they are so persecuted and discriminated against here in the U.S.A. by all the secularists. Please...atheists are such a tiny minority and the whole American society reaks so thick with Christianity that we are constantly having to answer questions from our 4 year about various misconceptions of reality based upon Christian mythology.

  We try not to make a big deal about it and calmly explain that there are many religions in the world and many beliefs but this is what we think....etc. The calmness is a mask for my annoyment at having this crap forced upon her without our consent. I wonder how happy these Christians would be if I constantly did the same to their children? So many Christians without a second thought take it as their right and duty to push their beliefs upon others, especially an innocent child.

  I try not to make a big deal of it so she will not become obsessed with it like I am. I want her to be a skeptical, rational, and independant thinker. I don't want her afraid of the Devil, demons, Hell, the destruction of Armageddon and a whole host of other nightmarish superstitious nonsense so she can concetrate on having a real life without a lot of irrational fear and guilt.

  We try to teach her about science, reason, observation, trusting her senses, and the application of Ocham's razor.