Posts by Liberty

21

Would you go back for ?

by oldflame in

jw
friends

would you go back to the dubs for your family ?

do you sometimes feel tired and stressed because your family shunns you so you go back to be with your family ?

personally myself ?

Liberty

Knowing what I know now I would NOT go back even if Ol' Johoobie Himself ordered me to. There is no reason to go back as the whole belief system is complete insanity.

26

There are no atheists in a foxhole

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

"there are no atheists in a foxhole"old soliders' adage this discussion was brought about by curiosity as to why in-.

dividuals have become atheists seeing that at one time they.

professed a belief in god.. the intent is not to argue, debate, or incite to riot.

Liberty

For me it was a long, slow, and painful process which brought me from a true believer to an atheist. I always was curious and loved science ever since I was a small child and these qualities do not bode well for a would be JW. One of the first remembered cracks in my faith came about when I caught the aquarium bug and by the time I was 12 or so I had graduated from tropical fresh water fish to salt water (Marine). My literal belief in the Global Flood story pushed by the Watchtower Society really began to unravel as my knowledge of Marine life increased in pursuit of this hobby. When I discovered it was impossible for the vast majority of plants and animals from either fresh or salt water to survive the change from one environment to the other I could not reconcile the Flood story with the reality I knew. I told my parents that Noah must have built aquariums into the Ark to save the aquatic animals. They were not happy, I saw a fearful anger in their response as they said that this was ridiculous idea and that I should not discuss it any further. I knew then that it was the Flood story which was ridiculous and not my new found skepticism. After this it became gradually easier for me to question my parent's religion whenever things didn't seem to add up, and that turned out to be rather often.

86

What Do You Think About The "Faithful&Discreet Slave Class"?

by minimus in

jw
friends

there are so many new posters here now, i think this topic should be revisited.

i believe the most ridiculous belief that witnesses have is a "slave class" made up of 144,000 give spiritual "food at the proper time".

why can't jws see thru this??

Liberty

A great topic Minimus. The whole FDS concept is another proof positive that Watchtowerism is a 100% man-made hooey religion with not an ounce of "Divine Inspiration" behind it. As an oldtimer back in the late 1960's and 70's I and all other JWs were emphatically taught that the real earthly leadership behind the Watchtower Society was the whole of the remaining 144,000 anointed class and this surviving "remnant" were the FDS. The FDS included all of the annointed scattered throughout the earth in the far flung congregations and not just those at the Bethal headquarters. We were told that these remaining members of 144,000 guided the dogma and activities of the Watchtower Society through their direct contact with the holy spirit which communicated Jehovah's will through Jesus to the earthly Organization. This mysterious spirit guided leadership was an awesom proof to those of us who made up the Great Crowd that this was truely Jehovah's Organization and not just another man-made cult because we didn't follow a single man and his opinions in a leadership role like Armstrong did for the Church of God but rather we had a united spirit directed leadership conveying our instructions through numerous annointed members (who were BACK THEN mostly ancient faithfuls who had been in the religion since Russel's day which gave them an added air of authority, respect, and mysticism).

The real leadership of the Watchtower Society who taught us this FDS model knew it was completely FALSE. There was no mystical communication from the scattered annointed guiding the Watchtower Society and there had never been any in the past either. The entire system had always been pushed forward by a complete dictatorship of one or two leaders and their centrally based staffs at headquarters. Russel, Rutherford/Franz, and Knorr/Franz were totally responsible for EVERYTHING the JWs believed. The anonymous authorship of all of the Society's publications after Rutherford's death was a trick designed to make the rank and file think they were the result of a group (annointed) effort hiding the FACT that since Rutherford's time nearly every bit of "New Light" published came exclusively from the fevered imagination of Fred Franz (most especially in the 1950's, 60's,and 70's). Bethal insiders knew this was the case and never told the rank & file. One of the biggest lies of the Watchtower Society which really was after all just another man-made cult based upon a select few imperfect human leaders and their opinion and conjecture. The FDS never existed as it was defined by the Watchtower itself in modern times. A complete flim-flam. It should be clear by now in 2006 that nearly all of the "real" annointed (once again by the Watchtower's own definitions) are long since dead and therefore this goofy FDS dogma makes even less sense today.

13

Truth

by EternalLife in

if those people are of some positive energy, they will see the light.

that is their free will choice.

as part of our ministry to those that oppose the truth, we point out that a humble heart is the only thing that saves anyone.

Liberty

How can we have "FREE WILL" if we are punished for making the "WRONG" choice and rewarded for making the "RIGHT" choice? This is a contradiction in terms and a complete absurdity. With this logic Nazi Germany would have been a "free willers" paradise as you could "freely" choose to serve the State or not and then be sent to a concentration camp for disposal. This is my idea of real freedom. The concept of Free Will is one of the stupidest of modern Christian doctrine.

39

Blood Transfusion Question - Dogs

by Duncan in

jw
friends

dear everyone,.

there was a very interesting item on this morning's bbc breakfast news programme - to do with blood transfusions for dogs.

a new website has been set up, along with an appeal to owners to type and register their pets as potential donors, should the need arise.

Liberty

Just more evidence of Watchtowerism whackyness. Should animals be disfellowshipped for fornication and should we have animal weddings if we breed them so they can be guilty of adultry when they hump another animal not their mate? If animals are expecteded to be subject to the blood ban then why not all human morality? Murder, theft, loose conduct. Complete nonsense even if I bought into the human blood ban doctrine why would it be the only human law which is applied to animals? Absurdity upon absurdity.

35

The Battery is almost Dead.

by KW13 in

jw
friends

for over 100 years the same message of doom and gloom for the world has been preached with a twist.

if your a jehovah's witness you can be saved.. .

i think people are tired of expecting the end of the system, the older generation (there are more older ones than younger i am guessing) are seeing the end of their lives when they thought they never would and some of them probably think about the false prophecy.. .

Liberty

Watchtowerism has been without a viable doctrinal "energy source" ever since Fred Franz died in the early 1990's. They are truely running on fumes at this point, or as you put it so well, the battery is almost dead. Since Fred Franz successfully kicked out the best and brightest of his braintrust competition in the witch trails of the early 1980's his death really left the Watchtower Society in a pickle. Without an energetic and imaginative "Bible Scholar" who is adept at "mental gymnastics" no matter how misguided and looney, the Watchtower leadership has been in an intellectual vacuum for years now. This is a religion and, truthfully, all religion really has to offer are basically imaginative ideas held together by a sense of community and tradition. A comparitively young religion like Watchtowerism has very little tried and tested tradition to successfully recycle their time-failed ideas unlike traditional Christianity which has not relied on time-limited promises/ideas for 1800 years now.

In short, the only appeal of Watchtowerism over traditional Christianity is its DOOM & GLOOM "Bible-based" tm. AREN'T THINGS TERRIBLE ONLY WE KNOW WHEN Armeggedon time -lines " and paradise your lifetime" extra complicated "deep" understanding by God's only Earthly Channel. Without any updated or interesting DEEP (it was deep all right) understanding of Bible prophecy they now really have very little to offer someone seeking an alternative to traditional Christianity. The fire is out and the coals are smoldering. If someone comes along with some new twists and some charisma these coals can be reignited but how many Russels, Rutherfords, and Franzes are there? So far none in the Watchtower camp who've been left alone long enough to take over.... so they get fumes, coals and dying batteries.

10

Property is theft?

by Narkissos in

jw
friends

from one language or one continent to another very similar words often have very different meanings.

perhaps notions too.. one striking example (for a french user of an english forum) is the political/economical use of the notion of "freedom / liberty".. for instance, "liberalism" in current english seems to be fairly equivalent to "left-wing" (on almost any issue, whether moral, social or economical).

in french, liberalisme points to low state involvement in economic or social issues, which is clearly a right-wing doctrine.

Liberty

Hi Narkissos,

I consider myself a libertarian so I may be semi-qualified to answer your question. Firstly, since I am an atheist also, I would say that any concept of ownwership is strictly a human construct much like manners and morality. Since I believe that there is no "higher authority" who gives us absolute truths we as humans are left floundering around to find "truths" on our own using logic, history, and experiance to formulate some kind of objective reality we can live with. The concept of property falls into this category. Ayn Rand wrote extensively on the non-theistic justifications of a property concept. As I recall chief among her arguments was how human individuals take a natural resource and through the application of intelligence and labor produce something of a much greater value which can rightly then be thought of as their property.

I think any human construct is open to critical debate and ultimately I would agree that no one can really own anything since the Universe was here long before the first human could claim it. I could make the same arguments for rape and murder since forced sex and killing among animals has existed for much longer than any human or their moral contstructs. However, in order for humans to live together in some kind of orderly semi-peaceful way, we have evolved these human constructs and formed societies. I think the American concept that personal property insures individual liberty is such a construct. The writings of Ayn Rand and other liberty based philosophies have convinced me (a once ardent communalist) that individualism goes hand in hand with property rights and liberty. You cannot have communalism/communism/socialism and individual freedom because they are mutually exclusive. So far capitalism, though imperfect, is the most liberty friendly economic system since, by its very nature, you have less people to answer to. The economic effeciency of capitalism is also a nice side benifit to enhance the individual liberty angle.

I think a key to understanding the american libertarian view is the acceptance that all humans are very different in ability and intelligence, therefore, equality is not a literal concept applied to people outside of a government arena. Equality is the way a very limited government should treat citizens equally not giving special favors or changing laws for people based on social class or race. In short, equality is how laws are written and enforced by the governments but not an individual's concept applied to the very real differences in human beings. There is an acceptance that there will always be segments of a given population which are not as well off as others due to circumstance or lack of ability. Libertarianism is NOT a Utopian philosophy which promises to solve all problems. Libertarianism/capitalism merely promises to be the most effecient and liberty friendly system among many other flawed economic models. It is unrealistic to think perfection of any human construct is possible since their source, the human mind, is imperfect.

20

Bible Study - what do you think of this?

by Bad Girl in

jw
friends

i cant help thinking that the original "bible students" did things the right way compared to how its done today.

they sat together in small groups, read and discussed scriptures and then wrote down their findings.

they did this until they had gone through the whole bible.. i know that reading the entire bible is a prerequisite for becoming a jw, but i wonder how many jws really do it or if most of them just know the regular snippets of scripture which are quoted in the magazines, and of course in field ministry etc.. i have decided that allthough i have read the bible - i think i am going to do a study of it the way these early bible students did, im going to read paragraph by paragraph and write down my findings and my feelings about what is written.

Liberty

PrimateDave gave some great references. Also I was amazed at just how silly the Bible really is if you read it "fresh" without 2000 years of Christian apologetics giving you preconceptions that you subconsciously read into the Bible texts. In short, try reading it as just another book you knew nothing about before you started reading it and it becomes a whole different experiance.

For example, a fresh reading of the Adam & Eve story is a real eye-opener. Most people are shocked to find that the Devil is NOT mentioned anywhere in the text. It is also very clear that the serpent is the real truth-teller in the story and not God. I challenge you to read it just as is without all the centuries of Christian excuses and extra-biblical explainations filling in the the gaps and you will be amazed. The Creation account is a real hoot even if you only have an 8th grade understanding of basic science you will see how out of sequence and impossible it all is.

Just a few more reasons why the Watchtower Society doesn't want you reading the Bible without their "help".

69

Did u want to leave the org bcause u were doing something immoral?

by Will2Power in

jw
friends

..and then sought to justify your leaving the organisation/religion by researching websites like this (to salve your conscience, justify continuing in your pleasurable but unscriptural lifestyle), or did you sincerely leave purely because you discovered certain false teachings, scandals, etc, while still living a moral, christian lifestyle?

be honest now, i mean really honest.

(this is not meant to offend anyone but viewed like a survey).

Liberty

Many JWs believe it is true that the most likely persons who would leave Watchtowerism are involved in some kind of "immmorality". I think logic and statistics tells us that this is a false perception since the Watchtower Society easily forgives even the most horrific of sexual sins, child molestation. Immorality is not what the Watchtower fears since most true believers beg to come back and are easily accepted back for mere "human weakness" type sins.

What is unforgivable and most strictly policed by the Watchtower is doctrinal disagreement. Those most likely to be guilty of "independant thinking" are the Society's most moral and thoughtful members who are bothered by their cognitive dissonence with Watchtower teachings which disturb their consciences and/or off balance their logic compasses. Being a drugged out alcoholic sex maniac does not entail much thinking and people involved in such things are usually in no condition to "take a stand" or "make a statement" by voluntarily leaving Watchtowerism since they are guilt-ridden and shamed and do not wish to make a scene which can forever cut them off from their family and friends. On the other hand, people who leave for intellectual reasons are exactly the type who will make a stand and are willing to give up family, friends, and comfort because they believe that real truth is more important. These folks usually never come back since they are perfectly justified and unashamed of their new found belief that the Watchtower philosophy is patently false and that the leadership has known all along that it is false.

I left as a teenager because my gut told me that what they tought just did not add up and my intensive research later proved that Watchtowerism was, in fact, wrong. I was researching the Bible and science instead of "having a good time" for years due to my Watchtower trauma. I remained a virgin until I was 29 years old, long after I ceased to be a JW and knew that their doctrines were false. Immorality of any kind was never my reason for leaving. I left because Watchtowerism is a LIE. I was able at some point long after I no longer considered myself a JW to have a fairly normal sex life with one partner when I finally overcame the Watchtower's alarmist and narrow minded concepts of sexuality which I had been brainwashed with. In fact, my "morality" was actually the last thing to go instead of the first. Since I have been with the same woman now for 15 years I am not even sure I qualify for being "immoral" by even the strictist standards since many JWs in good standing have had many more sexual partners than me due to divorce or reinstatment.

53

how many atheist and agnostics on this site

by dannygwalsh in

jw
friends

hi everyone just a question to satisfy my curiosity , and if you are a non believer are you happier for being so

Liberty

I am much happier as an atheist than I ever was as a JW. Now knowing that all the horrors occurring throughout the Universe are driven by random and unthinking forces allows me a somewhat more restfull sleep than when I believed that there was some kind of intelligence driving it all. I slowly came to realize that such an 'intelligence" would either have to be cruel, unjust, stark-raving-mad, and plainly evil or more simply nonexistant.

I can't get the vivid imagery of that fallen naked baby bird, I once saw as kid, out of my mind when ever I hear the words our "loving Creator". I had an epiphany that day long ago as I watched it writhing in agony, trailing its guts in the baking Sun, slowly dying of dehydration all the while being eaten alive by ants, and I dared to ask myself , "Did God create this?". One of the first small steps I took on that long journey to freedom from theism's oppressive delussions.