Posts by Liberty

25

BEFORE YOU LEFT......

by In_between_days in

another question.. this one is for all those that began doubting the organisation when they were an obedient jw.. although i am sure you rarely shared it with anyone, what was the one problem you had with a certain jw only doctrine?.

what i mean is, what little gremlins lurked at the back of your mind?

what were the doubts that you kept hidden and what made you finally act on them?.

Liberty

Hi In-between-days,

Like many others have mentioned, the Watchtower Society's general anti-science stance and complete cluelessness about the real facts concerning the Flood, the Tower of Babel, and Evolution were all a real let down to me. The Society brainwashes you into thinking they are experts on everything so it is a shock to discover what hacks and boobs these "experts" really were once the real evidence is presented.

They are not even experts on the Bible, which they should be at the very least, one would think. For example, as someone else mentioned, when I was a kid many years ago the Society said that Jesus didn't have a beard and illustrated him clean shaven in thier old literature. I seem to remember them speculating that he belonged to some Jewish sect that didn't grow beards, however, I once saw an Amish spokesman who plainly knew more about the Bible than the Watchtower writers because he pointed out to a skeptical reporter that the Amish wore beards because the Bible clearly said that the Romans pulled Jesus' beard and spat in his face. How such an obvious biblical reference could have been missed by the JW "scholars" for years ever since Rutherford's day astounded me. The Watchtower eventually changed their stance on Jesus' beard (though it remained ridiculously short trimmed in modern style) because the evidence was so overwhelming that such an influence of personal taste (Rutherford hated beards) could finally be revised years after Rutherford's death. The JW "unofficial" rule against beards was also influenced by this personal and extra-biblical bias. I, like many others, was "councelled" by the Elders for having facial hair. This was just another in a whole ridiculous set of Watchtower rules which had nothing to do with Christianity or the Bible (like having to wear a tie).

Another big problem for me was knowing how few people in the Middle East and Asia had been reached by the "Good News", and yet knowing that the Society said Armageddon could come at any moment. This was an obvious contradiction to me since Jesus said that his word would be preached to the ENTIRE inhabited Earth before the End could come. Their lame explainations for this gross contradiction of logic failed to instill much confidence in me.

I could go on but these were enough to really make me question the validity of the rest of their self serving grandeous claims. But what do I know? I'm just a grumbler seeking to elevate myself above the brothers because I can't wait on Jehovah.

21

Just The FACTS Please!!

by Unclepenn1 in

jw
friends

this is a new post but the continuation of a thread that was called 'wanting to believe in god'.

i thought the information was important, so i figured it would be best to start something new, rather than hijack a previous topic.

two people made similar comments, which i believe to be mistaken, and not what the facts of history tell us.

Liberty

Hi Unclepenn1,

Thanks for the reply. Please believe me that my responses are not personal attacks but just friendly debate. Like so many things in life the facts are often indisputable yet their interpretation is open to debate, which complicates the matter. Unfortunately, for your argument's sake, our interpretations are quite different and I believe my interpretations are more accurate. It seems to me that you have attributed social advancement(facts) within a culture primarily to the religion of that culture (an iterpretation).

Using your logic, the great advances of the Pagan Greco-Roman, East Indian, and Chinese cultures should be attributed to their religions. Yet you, I'm sure, would say that the Pagan religions of these cultures were false and perhaps even evil. In short, the truth or goodness of a culture's religion is not always responsible for that culture's advancement. It also follows that a Christian culture could have a completly false religion and still have social or scientific advancement despite its religion. Logic dictates that if it's true for one then it should be true for the other. The same could be said of an individual, a person could be a Morman or a Moonie and that person may be brilliant and ethical. Is that person brilliant and ethical because of their religion? If so, then the Moonies must be the true religion. Does the same follow if this person is stupid and evil? Does this then mean that their religion made them stupid and evil and that the religion is therefore false? I'm sure you can now see the fallacy of your theory that Christianity is responsable for our culture's advancements. Individuals and cultures are so complex that one cause (religion) cannot explain all results. I'm out of time for now but I hope to revisit this later if possible.

Thanks,
Liberty

51

Did Satan prove God wrong? a possible bibical flaw

by Leander in

jw
friends

most people are familiar with the account of job where satan makes the claim that the only reason humans serve god is because of selfish reasons.

god allowed satan to test this theory on job, so job was beset by numerous trials but he refused to give up on god or blame him in anyway.. it would appear that satan was proved wrong in this particular bible account but was he really?

would the majority of mankind follow jobs example if they were faced with similar trials?

Liberty

Hi Leander,

Satan, the very few times he actually appears in the Bible, always seemed like the voice of reason to me compared to the psychopathic behaviour of God. These Biblical fables could be seen as subtle jabs at authority by their originators calling into question the legitimacy of self proclaimed authorities/rulers and why we subject ourselves to them. The priests and scribes who most likely wrote the final forms of these oral myths had personal agendas just like writers today. I'm sure some of them were fed up with their leaders and they quietly put these rebellious tendancies into these Bible stories using the Devil to make their points for them, leaving them an out if they got caught because they could always claim that they were just illustrating how bad the Devil is. Deniability was important to these clever fellows because their brutal murderous leaders would have any opposition folks punished with a long and painful death. Luckily, most brutal leaders are not very literate so most of them never noticed the questioning attitude in these stories against the brutish God which gave them their illusionary legitimacy to bully the rest of the population.

So yes, I think the Devil in these stories is often right. Ask yourself, why do Christians serve God? For the prizes baby! and to avoid the punishments! Why else would there be promises of everlasting perfect lives in paradise or eternal torment? If it weren't for the prizes or punishments religions wouldn't have any followers. If God said, "worship me and you'll get exactly the same thing that you would get anyway if you didn't" how many Christians would there be? This is also why the Free Will concept among Christians is such a crock. How can you freely make a choice if you are punished or rewarded when you choose? We cow-tow to God just like we do to brutal dictators in this world because of fear and/or the hope of rewards. The Bible writers lived under brutal murderous dictators, whether their own or under a conquering army, so they were very famiiar with these choices and the spirit realm reflected this reality from their own lives. Hence Ol'Jehover is the stupid brute killer God always throwing a tantrum and whining that no one accepts His legitimate authority. Would a Super Being creator of the Universe really need to constantly tell us why He's in charge and then prove how strong He was? That is why the literal Bible is nonsense. It cannot logically be inspired by a real being capable of such great things. Satan is there to remind us of the stupidity of subjecting ourselves to authority figures who must explain why they should be in charge.

I'll burn for this one!

28

Become a Witness??

by littlelamb in

jw
friends

hello all...well i am very new to this site.

i have recently been contemplating of fiding out more about the jehovah's witness religion.

i have done some research, have talked and am friends with witnesses, and am ready to take it a step further.

Liberty

Hi Littlelamb,

If you are truely interested in learning about the Bible then the Watchtower Society and their followers are the wrong place for you to turn to. Even top leaders in the JW movement have only a surface knowledge of the Scriptures and their "deep" understanding is illusional at best. A good Jr. College intro class on the Bible will give you a far better understanding of the Scriptures than studying with a JW. There are also great self study books about the Bible available which are more objective and have no hidden agendas unlike the Watchtower Society style of "study".

A JW will not even talk with a well trained Bible scholar because the JWs weak arguments will be ripped to shreds. The Society warns their members to avoid Bible debates for this very reason as their membership is so poorly equiped to handle an educated foe. You should ask yourself, would an honest and confident person with a thorough Bible knowledge ever really turn down a chance to get into a good discussion about such an intersting subject?

I suggest you do more research on the Watchtower's history using outside sources along with the Society's original publications to verify all their false predictions and extra Biblical teachings. See for yourself why there are so many Ex-JWs before you make any commitments to this group.

7

God three whats and one whom????????????

by airmail special in

hello all.. i dont know if this is the right area for debate most i have read on here is pretty childish.

but im looking for debaters to handle this topic on the trinity.

ex jws say they now have the truth and many have gone back to churches.

Liberty

Hi Airmail Special,

I'm not the best person to debate the Trinity because I'm an Atheist and, ultimately, I don't think it matters much, however, I have always been struck by the confusion Bible writers had about just what a god is. The whole confusion surrounding the Trinity is due to the fact that God was never clearly defined in the Bible and that the multiple tribal gods of the Old Test. are melded and morphed into the Jesus concept of the New Test.. It is clear to me from reading the New Test. that these late writers believed Jesus was indeed God.

JWs are too quick to disagree with this (the Trinity) because it doesn't make logical sense that there could be a God the Father and a God the Son but yet agree with all the other nonsense presented in the Bible. It is also obvious from early Old Test. books that there were multiple gods working on the Creation and that the Hebrews believed in the reality and power of other tribes' gods as well, with their own god being one of many fighting for control in the region.

When looked at objectively, it is clear that pure modern style Monotheism was an unknown concept to the Bible writers. Hence, I think the Trinity concept was not seen as strange to the early Church Fathers who were comfortable in a Polytheistic world where men routinly became gods and gods often appeared as men. The fear of other gods drove the Isrealites to their extreme measures against idolatry because they took these other gods seriously. A true Monotheist wouldn't worry so much about mute statues if they believed they were false/nonexistant gods as they would become merely art objects, the same goes for a true singular god himself who would laugh at false gods rather than being "jealous" of them and warning against asking them favours. The whole Trinity argument has its roots in this Biblical confusion over the nature of God or even of the number of gods which were thought to have power and substance.

86

Silliest thing that Witnesses told you was wrong?

by gilwarrior in

there are two things.

in the early and mid 80s there were witnesses saying that the cartoon characters the smurfs were not acceptable for witnesses.

i had two smurf cartoon books and my mother made me throw them away.

Liberty

I too heard the stupid JW line about John Denver playing the National Anthem at his concerts and then publicly embarrassing JWs and forcing them to leave when they wouldn't salute the flag. I was a huge John Denver fan and this really disturbed me. Years later I finally got to go to one of his last concerts, the Wildlife Tour, before he died. I'm so glad I got to go since there will be no more. In any case, he NEVER played the National Anthem, had no flag salute, nor made anybody leave.

This is obviously just gossip encouraged by the Society since so many JWs were attracted to JD's nature themed music and down home approach. They couldn't stand to have you give attention to anyone but themselves. Common sense made me suspect that this story was bogus anyway, considering the anti-war/US government sentiments of the early 1970's, a saavy entertainer like JD would not have risked angering the eco-friendly/hippie fan base with such patriotic excess. Especially so since he started as a folk singer in the 1960's where making people salute the flag would have been very uncool in the circles he ran in. This is just one more of many idiotic JW myths.

Unclepenn1 list how JC transformed the world

by Liberty in

please elaborate your evidence from our previous discussion about how jesus christ's rising from the grave has transformed the world beyond that of the impact of other religious/philisophical leaders such as mohamed, lao tsu, and the buddha.

you mentioned that this event was responsible for various general reforms and advances in medicine and society for examples, however, i am only aware of the slow down in progress due to the repression of science by the early christian church.

i am also aware of the brutality of bible sanctioned punishments imposed on generations of innocent victims for imaginary crimes like witchcraft, and of the bible's acceptance of slavery as a normal social condition.

Liberty

Hi Unclepenn1,

Please elaborate your evidence from our previous discussion about how Jesus Christ's rising from the grave has transformed the World beyond that of the impact of other religious/philisophical leaders such as Mohamed, Lao Tsu, and the Buddha. You mentioned that this event was responsible for various general reforms and advances in medicine and society for examples, however, I am only aware of the slow down in progress due to the repression of science by the early Christian Church. I am also aware of the brutality of Bible sanctioned punishments imposed on generations of innocent victims for imaginary crimes like witchcraft, and of the Bible's acceptance of slavery as a normal social condition. I am interested in your evidence if my own research has misled me. I am a skeptic so any overturning of accepted ideas is welcome IF the evidence warrents such a change. You said you would welcome the chance to present such evidence so my curiosity is peeked.

Thanks,

Liberty

96

ONLY A MATTER OF TIME

by You Know in

world renown conservative investor, warren buffet, told an audience that a nuclear attack upon the united states was a certainty.

such an attack would of course result in swift and terrible retaliation and the likey annihilation of most of the arab world and then some.

whether or not that proves to be the exact scenario that's played out, it must be admitted that the climate for the sudden outbreak of a nuclear storm has never been so favorable.

Liberty

Good to hear from you again You Know,

Those of us who disbelieve the World Wide Flood do so because there is no evidence for such an event. In fact, all evidence, Geological, Biological, Anthropological, and Archeological points to the reality that a World Wide Flood could NOT have happened ever in the past, let alone just a few thousand years ago as the Biblical time lines require. This does not even get into the logical or common sense reasons why such an event is pure fiction. Unfortunately, you will not examine the evidence objectively so you are left believing in things that never happened and things which never will happen.

You made a very true statement however, that, "a person's disbelief doesn't determine reality". How true and the same could be said of someone's beliefs. So there is hope for you yet. What you or I believe is of little importance to reality's outcome. What really matters in reality are the facts. Your conjectures about the future are clouded by your belief in a religious philosophy which facts have proven over and over again to be unreliable. Anyone can predict the possibility of an atomic attack since such weapons do exist but we are just as likely to be hit by a bolide (astroid) or enter another ice age. None of these possible catastrophies means that God is behind them however, because they have all happened before and yet they did not usher in Armegeddon.

Such predictions are of only limited use since there is little we can do about them as our belief or disbelief in God has never had an effect on these deadly events in the past and therefore probably won't in the future either. Christians died in the blast at Hiroshima just like pagans. If you can provide some evidence which can change the outcomes of future events or prove that God will protect us then I'm ready to listen but so far all we've gotten are vague threats and a thousand contradicting paths to God's favor. If I am ever judged before God's throne I will stand as an honest disbeliever and He will do with me whatever He pleases anyway whether I believed in wild predictions or not. I can see no logical advantage in your Doomsaying philosophy.

52

WANTING to Believe in God

by dobby in

jw
friends

has anyone had this experience?.

after letting go of my beliefs as a jw, i felt the only alternative was to be atheist.

or maybe it is just logical to there is no god when i am only listening to my mind and not my heart.

Liberty

Hi UnclePenn,

Sorry, but as far as I can see humanity was not changed by this event 2000 years ago any more than it was by works of Mohamed, Joseph Smith, Loa Tzu, Confusious, or the Buddha. Human beings who are trained under Christianity have proven over & over again that they are just as capable of the same brutality as any other religion or philosophy. Jesus has never returned in 2000 years as he promised. His apostles all grew old and died waiting for his promised return in their lifetimes. You are a Christian so you block out these facts and this is understandable. I'm sure you are a nice and well intentioned person but you have not presented any evidence for your claims. How can I be expected to have blind faith in these things when all the evidence around me says it is untrue?

You are a Christian because you were born into a Christian culture not because you freely chose it as otherwise Christianity would be equally chosen by people around the world instead of by culture and region. The same goes for Islam. We are taught to believe something is true by our culture and can only test this belief against the objective evidence we see in the world. Christianity fails every test. Does God really pick His believers based upon race and culture? This would be very unfair ,yet, this is what the evidence says if He were real. I cannot reconcile such an obvious flaw.

52

WANTING to Believe in God

by dobby in

jw
friends

has anyone had this experience?.

after letting go of my beliefs as a jw, i felt the only alternative was to be atheist.

or maybe it is just logical to there is no god when i am only listening to my mind and not my heart.

Liberty

Hi Dobby,

My experience after leaving the Watchtower was different. I retained my belief in God for years while steadily becoming a more "liberal" Christian as I learned more and modified my original JW Fundi beliefs into ever more moderate ones. One of the main reasons I left in the first place was the Society's anti-science stance and Bible literalism which I knew could not be reconciled with the physical evidence. As I studied more on my own, applied some common sense, and then took more University courses I began to see that even maintaining a belief in any part of the Bible was just not possible for me. It became clear that the Bible was not inspired at all even in a symbolic sense so I rejected it as a communication to humanity from God. Soon I realized that if God had not bothered to communicate with His creation then He, at best remains neutral to our plight, or, in all probability, was just a figment of our own imaginations.

I sleep better not worrying about what God thinks of me or wondering how He can tolerate all the horror and suffering in the world by doing nothing to help. I now like my Universe impersonal and neutral. There is no one to praise or blame and things are just as they appear. We have science and logic to guide us and physical evidence to help solve our problems and mysteries. If there is a God I do not fear His judgements because I have been intellectually honest in not seeing His presence. He knows the poor evidence He has provided and only a crazy God would punish us for not believing. With or without God I am content that my continuing search for truth has been genuine and limited only by the flaws inherent to my being. So being an Atheist for me is not about revenge or bitterness directed at the Watchtower Society but rather it is the culmination of a long spiritual journey of self discovery.