At present, there's quite a bit of futility in the explanations of various scientists like Steinhardt and others who are attempting to explain the origin of the universe.
http://www.physics.princeton.edu/~steinh/
They are working on models to explain the origin of the universe using deeply abstracted tools in mathematical physics (built on ideas that are extrapolations of other ideas implied by other ideas that might be a mathematical, maybe even physical consequence of other ideas - none of which have been observed), that might possibly account for some of the things that we see. There is not now nor could there possibly be (in any remotely meaningful way) anything that qualifies as genuine evidence for these types of theories. They are somewhat elegant theories, but they are not remotely "science." It is mathematical philosophy at best. String theory alone may one day find some evidence, but the pre-big bang models based on string theory are fundamentally un-empirical.
Furthermore, as it currently stands, these models appear to be fundamentally incompatible with current cosmological observations, hence the enormous number of non-empircally based ideas that go along with them.
As an example, the Ekpyrotic/Cyclic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekpyrotic_universe) models that they are working on end up positing extraordinarily complicated "mathematical entities" (fancy words for bigger universes) that require a tremendous number of non-trivial assumptions that are based on nothing other than "to make it work out.”
So sure, you can hold out for one of these theories, but you don't get to pretend that you're sticking with empirical or scientific ideas. You're at least as religious as any hyper fundamentalist in any religion. Theism often provides the greatest metaphysical explanatory power with the fewest non-trivial assumptions. If one insists on holding out for a scientific answer, then you will never find the answer. Any proposed explanation for the origin of the universe will be metaphysical and outside the reach of empirical science, whether it is theism or a string derived model. There's reason people have difficulty understanding.
Posts by Spade
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35I don't understand life or the universe
by Decided ini'm 75 years old and am confused about life and god.
all explainations seem made up by some religious person or some written book that doesn't make any sense to me.
why doesn't a god just let us know that he exist in some way that all people could understand.
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Spade
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21
Anyone catch the history channel this morning on Egyptian Hieroglyphs and Doomsday?
by sinis inthey started talking about archeologists in the last 1800's that believed that the pyramids were a key to the future by measuring the passageways of the great pyramid of giza - this method is called the "pyramid inch".
anyways, they supposedly could foretell 1914, 2001 (9/11), etc.. as soon as they mentioned 1914 it caught my attention.
after all, is this not how the wts originally came up with the year 1914????
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Spade
sinis said: "After all, is this not how the WTS originally came up with the year 1914????"
No.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/203740/1/Pyramidologists-the-Great-Pyramid-of-Gizeh
From the inception of Jehovah's Organization, the proclamation of Christ's Millennial Reign beginning in 1914 CE has always been taught to begin after the Gentiles Times as foretold in God's Word. The 2,520 years from 607 BCE.
Thy Kingdom Come 1898 Edition
And the parallelism continues to the full end of the harvest of this dispensation-until the overthrow of the professedly Christian kingdoms, really "kingdoms of this world," and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God in the earth at A.D. 1914, the terminus of the Times of the Gentiles. (See Vol. II., chap. iv.) Page 126, Thy Kingdom Come 1898 Edition
They attempted to corroborate Biblical time periods with the Great Pyramid for two reasons:
1. What was stated in Isaiah 19:19.
In that day there will prove to be an altar to Jehovah in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to Jehovah beside its boundary. Isaiah 19:19
2. Who built the Great Pyramid?
One of the enigmas about the Great Pyramid is who built it. It's been stated that the design, construction and astronomical calculations found on the Great Pyramid determine that it was virtually impossible for the Egyptians to have designed it. Simply put, the knowledge displayed in the Great Pyramid was too advanced for humans of that time.
The attempts to corroborate Biblical time periods with the Great Pyramid are summarized as follows:
The Corroborative Testimony of God's Stone Witness and Prophet
For simplicity we will take our erroneous A.D. as the standard, and will scale down the Pyramid figures to correspond, by deducting one and one-fourth inches from them, so that they will correspond with our common reckoning. Thus reduced, they would show (a) 1875 less 1 1/4 equal 1873 3/4; (b) 1882 less 1 1/4 equal 1880 3/4; and (c) 1911 less 1 1/4 equal 1909 3/4, and give the dates (a) October, 1874, (b) October, 1881 and (c) October, 1910, A. D.
How long this sifting of the consecrated will last, during which some will be granted the crowns of those adjudged unworthy, and their names written instead of some whose names will be blotted out (Rev. 3:5, 11), the Scriptures do not, so far as we have yet seen, indicate; but this date, 1910, indicated by the Pyramid, seems to harmonize well with the dates furnished by the Bible. Page 363 Thy Kingdom Come 1898 Edition
The four years from 1910 to the end of 1914, indicated thus in the Great Pyramid, will be quite sufficient for the extreme of all that trouble; for when it reaches its terrible climax it cannot last long ; and "Except those days should be shortened there should no flesh be saved."-Matt. 24:22 Page 364 Thy Kingdom Come 1898 Edition -
60
How many here have never been one of Jehovah's Witnesses?
by Spade inhow many here have never been one of jehovah's witnesses?
there seems to be a common denominator of former witnesses who accuse the watchtower society of being a false organization.
what they crave is acknowledgment that their way is the best way.
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Spade
"oh dear spade, im sorry. i mixed you up with alice. why, forgive me -- i think its because of the similar posting style, the similar nonsense, the similar delusions, the similar bashing of Mary, the fact you registered just after alice left -- but ofcourse you are two completely different people. im so sorry. Its just that i mixed you up and remembered what a nasty cow alice was.
i hope your wife is fine!
have you accepted a bible study? i think you should. do you know the watchtower has an official webpage and a monthly magazine? there is little reason you should be here, given all the wholesome spiritual goddies you can spend your time on.
SORRY SPADE YOU NICE PERSON! PLEASE BE A GOOD CHRISTIAN AND FORGIVE ME FOR MY SINS!"
This is just the funniest darn thing.
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60
How many here have never been one of Jehovah's Witnesses?
by Spade inhow many here have never been one of jehovah's witnesses?
there seems to be a common denominator of former witnesses who accuse the watchtower society of being a false organization.
what they crave is acknowledgment that their way is the best way.
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Spade
"Well now, that confirms it."
It confirms I didn't do something someone accused me of doing.
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60
How many here have never been one of Jehovah's Witnesses?
by Spade inhow many here have never been one of jehovah's witnesses?
there seems to be a common denominator of former witnesses who accuse the watchtower society of being a false organization.
what they crave is acknowledgment that their way is the best way.
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Spade
"Juan -- WELCOME!
in addition to what wobble said, Spade is getting a lot of flack, but its not because of her views (which are pretty harmless for the most part, she has only really said one nasty thing this time around by my count), its because spade was previously incarnated as another poster who made a hobby out of calling certain verified abuse victims liars. bad delusional troll. bad!"
I've never called any "verified abuse victims liars." Although completely unrelated (you changed the subject), news and analysis on abuse and victims is here for the record:
- Domestic Crime: Answering the Critics
- Psychology of Christendom's Clergy
- Sex Predators and Reform
- Abuse and Mandatory Reporting
- The Media Spotlight
If you don't agree with it, please place your comments elsewhere.
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60
How many here have never been one of Jehovah's Witnesses?
by Spade inhow many here have never been one of jehovah's witnesses?
there seems to be a common denominator of former witnesses who accuse the watchtower society of being a false organization.
what they crave is acknowledgment that their way is the best way.
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Spade
JuanMiguel wrote: “Being a part of the "one true religion" and being "enlightened" by it, and having "The Truth" are axioms for the Jehovah's Witness religion. Not all people or all religions see the world according to such a paradigm.”
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Something is either real or unreal, true or not true. For example, one of the main sources for atheistic enlightenment is evolution. The uncertainty clause is not enlightenment or truth.
“I'm not an atheist, I don't agree with any of the things you apparently look down upon (how did you gather this data of percentages, anyway--I think you're off on a lot), but I don't necessarily share your view on these various subjects either. I don't see myself reflected in anything you've written here.”
You don't think people here consist of multiple beliefs? This is just a couple of many threads.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/204982/1/I-need-a-show-of-hands-who-believes-the-Bible-and-to-what-extent
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/205373/1/Why-I-believe-the-Bible-is-true
People are diametrically opposed to each other belief-wise while universally allied against Jehovah's Witnesses. There may be a good reason for this in a person's mind but the lack of agreement obscures claims that are made against Jehovah’s Witnesses as being a false religion. You can also find multiple stances on http://www.freeminds.org/. It's not just a forum thing.
“Not all people who leave the Watchtower are these "evil, corrupt, devil-zombies" that the Watchtower promises you'll turn into if you leave their Kingdom Halls.”
I don't think this metaphor quite sums up the Watchtower society's opinion of those that leave. -
60
How many here have never been one of Jehovah's Witnesses?
by Spade inhow many here have never been one of jehovah's witnesses?
there seems to be a common denominator of former witnesses who accuse the watchtower society of being a false organization.
what they crave is acknowledgment that their way is the best way.
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Spade
"Please define what 'never' means. Thank you."
At one time you were a publisher or baptized member of the congregation.
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60
How many here have never been one of Jehovah's Witnesses?
by Spade inhow many here have never been one of jehovah's witnesses?
there seems to be a common denominator of former witnesses who accuse the watchtower society of being a false organization.
what they crave is acknowledgment that their way is the best way.
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Spade
Retrovirus; "That would be me."
Well good. That means there's actually some point in posting here.
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60
How many here have never been one of Jehovah's Witnesses?
by Spade inhow many here have never been one of jehovah's witnesses?
there seems to be a common denominator of former witnesses who accuse the watchtower society of being a false organization.
what they crave is acknowledgment that their way is the best way.
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Spade
How many here have never been one of Jehovah's Witnesses? There seems to be a common denominator of former Witnesses who accuse the Watchtower society of being a false organization. What they crave is acknowledgment that their way is the best way. They are desperate to have their ears tickled and are dedicated to those who hate the Watchtower society. What we have here is made up exclusively of ex-JWs who in their own words have "escaped the cult." They all claim how wonderful it is that they have escaped the “lies” of the Watchtower society by using foul language, derogatory terms and sexual innuendos with each other. They claim sensational media stories originating with apostates are truth. They claim literature written by disgruntled ex-members is truth. Some have talked about picketing outside the KH against shunning. They are no longer “brainwashed” or “controlled.”
Now comes the interesting part: have these so called “enlightened” individuals found something better? Have they found the truth? As opposed to the “lies” they used to believe?
10% have become atheists. 10% agnostic. 30% are not sure if the entire Bible is God’s word, 50% believe the Bible is Gods word. Out of that fifty percent 10% believe Jehovah is God’s name, but that he is the same as Jesus. 10% believe God and Jesus are separate. 10% believe Jehovah is not the correct rendition of the name and that it should not be used. 15% believe it does not matter. 5% believe God should be addresses as Jesus. Further, out of that 50 percent 70% believe they will go to heaven. 30% are not sure. 70% think God’s holy spirit is a person and part of a trinity, 30% are not sure what the holy spirit is. 60% believe the earth will be destroyed, 40% are not sure what will happen to the earth. 10% believe there is a hell. Of the thirty percent who are not sure about the Bible 85% believe in the after life but not sure where and how. 15% believe in re-incarnation. 40% dabble or have dabbled in the occult. 60% of those who believe they will go to heaven have no idea what to expect and 40% believe they will be on a re-created ‘heavenly’ earth. That just goes for doctrinal beliefs. It must be mentioned that almost 90% of them cannot explain why God has permitted wickedness and 100% of those who believe in God also believe that no matter what they do, they will be saved. Which also explains the personal beliefs and morals, just briefly around 80% believing homosexuality is ok, 60% believe adultery is ok (if for the right reasons, lol). 90% sleeping with someone before marriage (for the right reasons) is ok.
The statistics here are hypothetical but anyone would get the point and why those with a commitment to intellectual integrity, objectivity and honest debate would find the variety of conflicting doctrines disconcerting. -
147
Do You Hate The Jehovah's Witness Religion?
by minimus ini see some here who seem to despise the religion.
others seem to feel that witnesses are wacky but they don't hate them.. do you hate this religion?.
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Spade
"Has it been established whether or not Spade is Alice?
Spade, do you embrace all of the teachings as they are presented and believe the folks in Brooklyn are steering the masses correctly?"
I simply have an open mind towards Jehovah's Witnesses and take the defense as most people here take the offense. In today’s world I could hardly characterize them as a criminal organization. There may be a rigorous deconversion process for those that leave, but change, a reverse from whole souled devotion to any cause is never easy.